to think that Catholics shouldn't be Catholics if they find their leader so hateful?

[slightlystressed]

Thread about a thread I'm afraid.

Lots of catholics seem to condemn the Pope for his views on homosexuals, women, condoms in Africa etc.

But he is the leader of their church, and was elected by other cardinals who must share his views, they knew he was extremly conservative when the voted for him.

Why do catholics carry on being catholic when they seem to disagree with so many things their church preaches?

"The catholic church have disgraced themselves too many times to have any integrity left IMO. The whole church isn't about God or worships it revolves around the old, biggoted, predjudeced dinosaurs that run it."

I don't agree with that at all. The Catholic church is everyone involved, from Ratzinger down to me. I didn't 'vote' for him, neither did nickytwotimes or any other Catholic you might pass in the street. They may well be predjudiced dinosaurs, but they weren't around 50 years ago and won't be around in another 50, so what they think isn't really of too much consequence to me. So to aim insult after insult at us for something that is beyond our control and we don't support is hardly fair is it?

You can be a royalist and detest Charlie. My family is Irish and had shitloads of abuse in the IRA era. not their bloody fault, they were just trying to quietly lead their lives, but ok to call them names eh? Same thing.

Hmmm but see people berate the muslims as a people, not their officials.

Its the HEADS of the catholic church I see the problem with. Most catholics do not share the sentiments of 'homosexuality is wrong' / 'women have no place in the church'

Well not the ones I talk to anyway.

is buddism a religion? even if you downgrade it to a philosophy the liberal ideals tha christianity is based on all come from greek philosophy. tis a mute point.

buddism is not a religion cos it does not rely on hierarchy, the supernatural or dissing other religions, which is a good thing. i think dismissing it speak volumns about your attitude to religion.

OO good experiment Thisisnt! will watch with interest

I think there is a misunderstanding by a lot of secular/agnostic people in the UK as to what religion means to other people. It's not just a hobby or something you do when you're bored and there's nothing on telly. It can be your whole life.

Would you ask "why do British people continue to be British if they find their leader so hateful?"

For the same reason that most people don't call for the abolition of parliamentary democracy just because they don't like what the government is doing.

I disapprove whole-heartedly of our government's shameful role in the Iraq War, but I still think that parliamentary democracy, and maybe even the Labour Party, is still the least bad of the available options.

There are many things that the church hierarchy teaches which I have issues with. But I'm not going to just up and off because I don't agree with everything the Pope says.

I don't agree with everything my dh says either, but I'm not planning to chuck him out any time soon...

frogs. Elegantly put.

Oh no dis I'm berating the officials too! Any kind of Muslim is a fool to me. I think they're all dreadful people. Idiots. Sheep-like. Mostly terrorists probably. Deep down. Anti-gay. Anti-women. Anti-the entire western world. Why on earth would anyone want to be one? Unless they were crazy and listened to the voices in their heads of course. And what's the deal with the men wearing dresses? Fuckwits.

Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

I am extreemely pleased with the current Pope.

He is the one I hoped we would get after the death of John-Paul II. Then again I am very conservative so I'm getting what I want when more liberal Catholics are maybe not getting what they want.

The number of Priests that have let down the faith is very small. Statistically it is less than 150 of them that account for the majority of crimes. When you think the Catholic church has over 1 billion members who have to accept there will be some bad people in there. I have read that percentage wise there is more abuse in CofE but they have vastly less members so the raw numbers are smaller.

Every Priest as well as Catholic lay person I have ever met has utterly condemned their behaviour so to say that Catholics condone abuse is just plain wrong.

well don't you just come across a peachy treat?

eleanorbuntingcupcake

I'm not downgrading it./ dissing it. Buddists themselves argue that buddism is not a religion. I am respecting their belief.

My point was that out of the major religions - Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism - one could argue that Christianity is the most liberal.

I welcome debate on that point

There have been endless threads bashing muslims / Islam, and they all say 'but how can mioderate muslims allow this shit to happen' and everyone carries on bashing all muslims....this has happened frequently over the 6 or 7 years I have been on MN. agree there has been catholic bashing too, and CoE bashing.

And disregard for the seriousness of a secular position.....

Great post StrictlyKatty.

Thisisntover I think perhaps someone needs to report you before anything is done... will keep watching

You can let them know your views through all sorts of routes, just the same as you can within a political party.

The whole point of it is that you attempt to change things at grass roots level, so the example of the person who has several openly gay members of the parish is a good one. A few years ago these people would not have been openly gay, it wouold have been hidden. The church is becoming more liberal at its lowest levels, this will filter through as the elder members are replaced.

Reformation of a faith cannot happen overnight if it is to be successful and for the good of its members.

I do think that there are certain people on this forum who take pleasure in "catholic bashing" and threads like this are a fun outlet for them. It's really rather hypocritical though, the same people will tell you they abhor any kind of discrimination or persecution of ethnic minorities/gay people/people with disabilities etc, yet they are happy to spout vitriol at one particular faith at every opportunity.

Just as you cannot state that all muslims are extremist because a few are, you equally cannot state that all catholics are supporting homophobia/paedophilia etc. We are not, most of us are trying to be the best we can and to modernise our faith to eradicate the parts that are either no longer relevent or are not appropriate.

I don't think the op was catholic bashing, but as I said before, I do think the op was badly worded and open to misinterpretation.

Okay Arctic, I take you on.

I disagree that Christianity is not the most liberal, as it is a universalist religion. If you don't believe in Jesus, you go to hell, regardless of how wonderful a person you are, whether or not you have actually heard of Jesus - that's pretty illiberal. Also, arguably, Stalin, after being responsible for the deaths of millions and millions of people, could have turned around and gone "oh wait, I believe in Jesus" and then be saved.

Arcticfox, I think that many branches of christianity have become very liberal, but catholicism hasn't (and is becoming even less so under the current Pope). I think perhaps people had begun kidding themselves that things had become a bit more lenient, but the pope is reminding us that that's really not the case.

But anyway, it is a ridiculous argument to try and have, as there are so many versions of each religion, on such a wide scale. For Christiantiy for e.g., you have the huggy hippy everyone's alright, accept everyone end of the scale, all the way over to the killing doctors who practice abortion and gay bash, AIDS is the work of G-d end of the scale.

Because people do not blindly or lazily follow exectly the rules of the church when those rules go against their conscience or what they really believe to be true

Martin Sheen puts it very well

"Catholicism's basic foundation of faith is personal conscience. I think it's between you and God, not you and the Church. I think the Church is a conduit to God. The Church is not God..... You can't just go about your life with a set of rules set down by any organization. You have to be governed by your conscience. And so this is, above all, the foundation of Catholicism, so people have to make their own personal choice."

That always stuck in my head

(my way of putting it would be that americans didnt give up on being american when George Bush was in charge. And they had an election before he got in. a minority even voted for him in it)

Freddo I disagree, at grass roots level things are changing. The views of a few are not the views of many.

Killing doctors who perform abortions?

Serenity, I'm not sure about christianity in general but what you mention shows zero understanding of catholicism. In order to be 'saved' you need to truly repent meaning if you had the chance to go back in time you would do your actions differently. Believing in Jesus actually makes you more accountable for your actions as you have the knowledge of what is right and wrong and should be using that knowledge to behave in a more Christlike manner.

I think that whether Christianity is liberal or not depends greatly on where you live. In most of Western Europe, yes it is fairly liberal. But not everywhere.

Wouldn't like to work in an abortion clinic in the US for example. Plenty of less liberal Christians around to shoot you as you go into work there.

I've said it 100 times on here. There seems to be a horrible assumption on MN and society in general that it is somehow ok to brand all Catholics as abuse acceptors and Nazi followers.

It seems that standard joke... I read one last week which basically said they wondered how the Pope would have time to come to the UK when he would be so busy looking up alter boys clothes... WTF! No catholic thinks abuse is funny but everyone else seems to think it's really great for a laugh.

EleanoraBuntingCupcake Tue 02-Feb-10 09:41:18
fgs, its teh catholic church, run by men in frocks eying up the alter boys. he is a nutter. i wouldn't let him in teh country tbh

I would also like to point out the Pope's cousin was murdered by the Nazi's for having Down's so I hardly think he was a big fan... that and him being a child at the time so hardly a SS trooper as some people would like to make out.

Im not calling anyone names.

But he represents the catholic church and as a result he represents catholics, and so when he says these things, I, as a very non religious type person think why would you want to be associated by this man? And I dont think there is anything wrong in asking the question.

What exactly is the point of the Pope if so many of his flock disagree with him on some major points.

Are catholics not allowed to someway protest his appointment as Pope? How many cardinals vote to appoint the pope? Its clearly not representational of catholics.

itsmeolord, I think you may be right in some respects. But i think we have to be very careful, the great thing about catholicism is that changes do not happen on a whim (eg. divorce becomes fine because the king wants to get divorced!) Change does not be be considered and to happen slowly imo.