to think that Catholics shouldn't be Catholics if they find their leader so hateful?

[slightlystressed]

Thread about a thread I'm afraid.

Lots of catholics seem to condemn the Pope for his views on homosexuals, women, condoms in Africa etc.

But he is the leader of their church, and was elected by other cardinals who must share his views, they knew he was extremly conservative when the voted for him.

Why do catholics carry on being catholic when they seem to disagree with so many things their church preaches?

Eh ... the Catholic Church has been around for a veeerrry long time. Why should they give up on that for the sake of one, rather wacky, pope?

Think about it like this: Tony Blair was democratically elected, yes? Yet many people who approve of British democracy, still consider him to be failure of the system.

Rhubarb: I can respect people's right to hold their beliefs, whatever their beliefs are. But I can;t respect the beliefs, which are nonsense.
Freddo: Yes, that's what you believe, but other people who consider themselves (for example) christians take the other approach.

ANd actually, Freddo, that seems even more pointless to me - having an imaginary friend that you can't actually influence, and who KnowsBest seems a bit toxic - if Great Pumpkin's in charge, why bother to do anything for yourself (or indeed for other people when they are in difficulty - Great Pumpkin wants them to suffer...)

Years ago, at my convent school, a group of us RCs were 'debating' with a Muslim classmate who was an Ismaili Shia - I think that's right? Anyway, point was that her 'spiritual leader' was the Aga Khan. We said, how could she have respect for him as he was such a playboy? (I'm talking 30 years ago, so that was the case then; it may not be the case now!)

A passing teacher pointed out: how would we, as RCs, have defended various previous popes and their less than 'spiritual' activities? But the Borgia/Medici, etc. popes were hundreds of years ago, we protested!

Nevertheless, she said, countless people at the time continued to believe in the church, and accepted the flawed pope (or popes) as leader. So the point was (is) that the institution (whether that of Ismaili Shia'ism, or that of Catholicism, or whatever) is greater than the individual who is heading it at the time.

"imaginary friend" - very respectful. Thank you SGB. You may think your comments witty but to me they are just plain hurtful because you are mocking my intelligence and a part of who I am.

I can understand you not believing in God, but to mock my beliefs with comments like that, well it's just unnecessary and spiteful. It serves no other purpose. So thank you for making one person feel crap today.

One man, be him leader or worshipper, doesn't make an entire religion. Yes, the current Pope is a bit of a nut eccentric, but that doesn't mean the followers should all just disband.

Take any religion or set of principles, be the moral, philosophical, whatever. There will always be something that people disagree with to some degree - and yet the continue to hold those principles dear, as that something is outweighed by everything else that rings true to them.

I disagree with rather a lot the Pope has said, to be honest. But I still pray, I still hold the Rosary, I still attend Mass when I can.

< is prepared to get flamed >

Surely you could ask "Why do Muslims continue to worship Islam after seeing the increase in extremism?" along the same line? Individuals taking an over-zealous stance.

This is all very interesting to me - that so many Catholics on here were brought up to consider things sincerely and act according to their consciences.

This sounds like a completely different faith from the one I was brought up in. My Catholicism was one in which the hierarchy told you doctrine, you learnt it, you tried to understand it if you must, but if you couldn't, or where you disagreed with it, you were at fault, and at that point you suspended the whole operation of analysis and prayed for faith, and apologised for questioning.
Doctrine came from the priests (and was taught by nuns, but they don't take part in making it). You had no say in the matter, ever, and as a girl there was no possibility that you would ever, or anyone like you, even in principle: as a layperson you had to accept what you were told, and as a woman you would never be a part of doctrinal debate, which is for priests.

Not being able to exercise my own intelligence and conscience made me feel subhuman. I accept that as an individual you cannot always have your own way within an institution - you have to have leadership and unity. What I could not accept was that even in theory, no woman could EVER be a part of the decision making. And the stuff that came out of this institution, which had nothing to do with me or anyone like me, felt alien and frankly wrong and absolutely unsuitable to inform my ethical or spiritual life. But I had been told very clearly that however useless and pernicious it may seem, it was not up to me to choose to ignore it.

I am interested that there are many Catholics who were told to work with their consciences and I am wondering, among other things, how old you all are, and whether this is to do with me being ancient and educated some time ago (left school in 1989). But I also wonder if the Big hierarchy - vatican etc - knows about all these nuns telling girls these things in schools. I don't think it has ever been formally made the case that, for instance, it is ok to make your own mind up about sexuality as a Catholic. Or anything else.

Rhubarb - you should not feel bad at all, just allow SolidGold to carry on as I'm sure it's a complete embarassment to most of the atheists out there... in fact many might say solidgold is doing for atheism just what the pope is doing for catholicism (not me though )

vezzie - you must have been in a very old fashioned school that decided to ignore vatican II as much as possible? I do think (as a faily conservative Catholic) that all catholic's are now asked to question. I think that perhaps if you 'make your own mind up' about an issue that is very important to you and it is contrary to the beliefs of the church, then you need to decide for yourself to pray for enlightenment (either for acceptance or that the church itself will be enlightened!) or to join another religion that reflects your beliefs more accurately.

Thanks Freddo, I'm having a bit of a hard time right now and the last thing I need is for someone to try and ridicule me and the things I hold dear to me.

vezzie - I was at school in the 80's, I went to a catholic primary whose head was a nun and a catholic secondary. The primary school was closely linked to the church but we were never expected to learn the catechism off by heart (we were taught it but never really learnt it). Some of the teachers went to church and some didn't. It was never shoved down our throats. Most of my fear came from home where I wasn't allowed to question, sex was absolutely taboo. In fact I came home in tears once because I had been asked if I was a virgin, I could only think of the virgin Mary and thought that meant you couldn't have children, which was why her having Jesus was such a miracle - so I said I wasn't and they all took the piss. I begged mum in tears to tell me what virgin really meant but she refused.

Her catholicism is one I rage against. But I fully believe she would have been a very destructive person even without the religion.

Perhaps the school issue is also down to class? Ours was a very working class area where just keeping discipline going was a trial in itself - the strap was abolished when I was in my final year at Junior school I think.

Hey Rhubarb, I'm just sending you a mental hug and a mental nice cup of tea. Hope you feel better soon. Take no notice of SGB. She's just one of those really factual "go on then, prove it" people who cannot get religion or spirituality at all. I wouldn't like to live that way, to me it seems a totally impoverished and sad world view.

I know the feeling Rhubarb. I spent a lot of time in the religion and spirituality section when I was very emotional during my last pregnancy and was honestly regularly in tears over it It's just so addictive... DH is threatening to program the router so it won't allow mumsnet to come through...

Rhubarb: I'm sorry you're having a bad time of things. But I'm afraid that doesn't mean people have to pretend to agree with you when they don't.

SGB- are you being disingenuous? I don't think Rhubarb is asking you to pretend to agree with her, but the terms in which you couch your beliefs are rather stark and, dare I say it, offensive. I find the way you talk about my religion fairly insulting, and I think you are doing it in an inflammatory way.

Ooooh you have touched a raw nerve with me........Could not agree more slightly, i disagree with almost everything about 'my religion', and i am no longer a catholic, after 40 years! It is not at all part of who i am, despite 40 years of brain of washing! i cant be part of this anymore! i want to be a kind, caring person to all. it was easy to leave, i think even as a 5 year old i knew that the catholic religion was not who i was, there is no compromise!

But SolidGold, why do you feel the need to continually mock and attack people's beliefs? If someone is a Christian why not just leave them to it?
Perhaps Christians do try to convert atheists I admit, but the purpose of that is the belief that they are bringing them 'good news' and happiness (You may not agree!)
So why do atheists such as yourself continue to try to convert religious people to atheism?
Judging by the title of the thread, you did not come on here with the purpose of defending atheism, but with the intention of attacking catholicism.

I know you will have an answer to this along the lines of 'I want to stop people to stop lying to themselves' etc... I've heard it lots of times before, but I've never had it explained satisfactorily why an atheist would want to take someone way froma belief system that they are essentially happy with.

anyway, am banning myself for the rest of today as mumsnet is quickly becoming an unhealthy obsession!!

As someone who left the Catholic church I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. I just couldn't get my head around all the paradox and contradiction that surrounds Roman Catholicism in Ireland. I had many problems with the Catholic churches stance on things (condoms to Africa etc) which maybe you could argue as policy matters, but part of the fundamental Catholic belief is a belief in the infallibility of the pope and the literal occurence of transubstanciation.
These are two things in which you must believe in to be a Catholic under the teachings of the religion, they're what sets them apart from other christian religions. It has always baffled me the approach of religious followers who feel that they can pick and choose which fundamental parts of a religion they agree with and which they don't.

Rhubarb (sorry for thread hijack all) - new poster with name 'Rubarb' has just started posting. It has been pointed out to him that he (yes, he) has chosen a name very similar to yours, but he might not have revisited those threads and seen those comments....

I do actually respect everyone's right to hold beliefs, however idiotic or obnoxious - I don't hang around outside places of worship yelling 'It's all bullshit you know!'. But this is an open discussion forum, and a thread about whether or not people believe in gods or pixies or fairies or whatever.
And given the resurgence in recent years of all the bad aspects of religion (opression of women and gay people, violence against unbelievers, extra censorship) particularly the ever-present suggestion that 'religion must be respected' I think continulally disrespecting it is actually very important. Because while many individuals who happen to have irrational belief in non-existent beings are lovely people, there are those who use their 'belief system' as a way of abusing other people and insisting on having more human rights than the people who disagree with them, such as the right not to be mocked or disagreed with, which no human being is entitled to.
So, when I say all religion is bullshit, it's not your personal bullshit I'm having a specific go at. You go ahead and believe in it. But that doesn;t get you special privileges, that's all.

SGB I wish you wouldn't always place God in the same catagory as Pixie's... I really don't like that.

SGB, when you reply to individuals on here comparing their own beliefs to imaginery friends then I'm afraid I do think you are being spiteful just because.

Many people don't believe and think religion is dangerous, but they've managed to get their argument across a lot better than you.

I've made my points about why I am still a catholic further down the thread and am in no hurry to keep repeating the argument. I realise it's a bit of a pain to scroll down and read what people have put but it's also a pain having to answer new posts with replies you've already given.

In a nutshell. The catholic church is NOT defined by the Pope and his entourage. WE are the church, it's people. We do not pick and choose what we follow. I follow the teachings of Jesus as best I can, even if you don't believe in God and Jesus, you can appreciate his message in the NT and the idealism behind it. The catholic church as it is today was made by men who wanted power. Largely Constantine who realised that if he brought all the dissenting groups together, ironed out their differences and forged a set of rules between them that would give him tremendous power. It worked.

I do not believe that the origins of the catholic church lie with the catechism or its rules. It lies with the teachings of Christ. I am a catholic, it is a part of me. You may say I am brainwashed, I say that I chose to be a catholic. I made that conscious decision myself as an adult. Yes I was baptised, but now I'm an intelligent woman I think I can decide with some reasoning which religion, if any, I belong to. I am not about to walk away from my religion because of some ill-informed and slightly biased old men. They do not make the catholic church, its people make the catholic church. We are a mixed bunch, some good and some not so good, just like any other community. But whilst there are good people in the church willing to fight for what they believe it then I shall stay and fight with them.

And thank you for the hugs, I think I need them today. You know when you realise that life hasn't worked out for you at all and it may be too late to do anything about it? Well that's it really.

It shouldn't be 'jokes' really, but bringing it up is fine because it's real.

Granted that any organization might have people who do such things they don't generally promote the person responsible for covering it up and helping it continue to the top job.

onager - you cannot really compare the church to any other organisation. We did not elect this Pope, we cannot order his removal (unless you know a man who can?). Speaking out is often the only way to make people realise that the Pope is speaking on behalf of himself and the Vatican - NOT on behalf of ordinary catholics who have never even set foot in Rome.

In saying that we don't support his policies, we weaken his position. If the church are put under pressure sometimes they are capable making changes you know - like accepting already married Anglican clergymen, apologising for the part they played during the Inquisition, etc.

It's fine to bring this out into the open. As Freddo says, it does some good to get it all out there and debated. Catholicism isn't some secret cult and a lot of people have lots of misconceptions about it. Athiests and catholics alike have debated on this thread with mutual respect. It's a shame that a few people like to throw a spanner in to upset everyone every now and then, but that says more about them than anyone else.

The more catholics actually speak out against the dictatorship and hierarchy of the church, the more pressure the church will be under to change. And if it digs in its heels then it collapses, because the Pope will cease to represent his people, catholics will stop turning up at his Masses and he'll be just this old man with a few friends wondering where it all went wrong whilst we slowly re-build the church back to what it used to be.