to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

I don't know what to think of this thread. It is called "Am I being unreasonable to consider aa a dangerous cult" and I don't think that AA started off trying to be a cult. The problem is how do you define the word "cult?" Generally speaking a cult is a group of people whose beliefs or rituals are considered abnormal or bizarre, but who is doing the judging on what is abnormal or bizarre? What is abnormal or bizarre? Many religions are considered to be bizarre by other religions which begs the answer to the question, which one is considered the norm?

What I really don't understand is why some AA members so adamantly defend against someone calling AA a cult when they claim that AA is Spiritual and not Religious. Why do they even bother if it is so obvious? A religion has one or several deities that they humble themselves to and they are well documented in the scripture of the religion. AA says you can have any Higher Power (or deity) that you want, and it is not defined. Why do some members of AA get so upset when someone calls AA a cult?

Very interesting dialog going on here! Welcome to the thread.You have a lot of insight on AA! I too have a problem with AA not taking accountability for the actions of their members. They only control what they want and discard the rest! How do they turn their back on the crimes that are committed by their members? I think they are just worried about liability(money) and could care less if the minors they invite are subjected to sexual harrassment or other men and woman for that matter. It seems very evangical in nature,the same indoctrination to get others to volunteer and give countless hours of their time-when they should be with there family repairing those relationship!

Instead they help destroy many couples if one is not in the program.

Here is an eye opening article of AA members covering a murder up.
They admit they keep secrets and this group took a long time to coperate.
This AA Member committed murder and his sponsor covered it up for 2 weeks.

www.sunjournal.com/city/story/1063631

www,nadaytona.org

It seems that in 2010, Paul E. Clearly, Trustee of the General Service Board of AA, Inc. submitted a report about child sexual abuse in AA to the GSB?s Subcommittee on Vulnerable Members in AA (I know!). He detailed several shocking instances of predation and implored the GSB to take responsibility for the safety of AA?s most vulnerable members. He concludes:

'For a host of moral, ethical, and legal reasons, it?s time for the General Service Board to provide leadership in addressing the issue of child sexual abuse in AA.

Read Paul Cleary?s very revealing 7-page report, ?Predators in AA?.

He draw attention to the concerns of people in the UK at the beginning of the report. I think it is highly commendable that not only do the leadership of AA acknowledge the problems of sexual predation, rape and abuse of minors, but they are now looking to find a way to deal with it, without compromising the ideals of the fellowship.

stinkin-thinkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ATTACHMENT_TO_TOPIC_002-PREDATORS.doc.pdf

The worst thing they could do would be to pretend that it does not go on. Hats off to the AA leadership for being seen to address this terrible situation.

The main problem that I see with AA is that it has been heavily infiltrated by rogue members who use AA for their own purposes. I do not think it is as heavy as an 80/20 relationship where 20% of the people cause the majority of the problems. I believe it is about 10% in some geographic areas and approaching 1% in other areas. The thing is, how do you control or sanction the part that is being harmful?

From my own experiences and what I read in the newspapers, the ones that cause the major problems in AA are the ones that demand to know every detail of your transgressions, then use this information to control you with it. AA was not set up that way, it is set up to tell your higher power and one other person, not with every person you come in contact with that claims to be in AA and have such and such sobriety. These are the rogue trouble makers in AA who are quick to tell you that aren't an Alcoholic so you don't know what you are talking about or to tell you that you are not working a good program. The only reason they do this is for the power to control as many people as they can and they usually have multiple sponcees. It could also be that they don't have multiple sponcees depending upon how controlling they are, because people realize that they are just control freaks and try to avoid them, but can't avoid them entirely because they belong to the same fellowship. Rogue AA members also are usually in denial that they have a problem trying to control people and will also come up with the story that many people have asked them to be their sponsors, but they have declined. The only real way to tell the truth is to find out from people who they have sponsored and people who didn't want or ask them to be sponsors and why.

There must be an answer to this problem somewhere, we just haven't found it yet. The problem with trying to find an answer to this problem is that some, not all, of the AA members who claim to be questioning people for altruistic reasons are not. They are doing it to maintain their control over as many people as possible and the ones who should be avoided at all costs. We need to find a solution to this problem, unfortunately because of the way AA is structured, it is hard to implement because the rogue AA members always use the "take what you want and leave the rest" defense to cover up their real intentions. The "Big Book" and the AA program were not set up this way, it has been modified by rogue AA members to include this statement and they did it for a reason.

This thread has been reference in a, 'Minority Report', submitted by, 'aacultwatch', to the next UK AA conference. Thank you to everyone who has contributed. I don't imagine that aacultwatch would be bothering with it if it had no merit, on whichsover side the individual posters were on.

Sadly, stinkin-thinkin.com has disappeared, due to the owners receiving death threats and the fact that their home addresses were posted on the blog. One of the two owners has young daughters and she has (rightly) decided that she has to put her own safety and security first.

leavingaa.com/?page_id=51

This a new site, to accommodate readers of stinkin-thinkin.com, which was closed when one of the owners had her home address posted and had a threat to chop off her head. (the relevant authorities have been informed).

There is a story about the eigth down on that thread which gives the experience of a Londoner going through the mill of AA.

It is quite long and very difficult to read (includes a long letter to his father trying to explain how he reached his painful conclusions)

Best quotes, imho:

'an admission of powerlessness over alcohol creates alcoholics'.
'I could not turn to family and friends because I had told them clearly that my life was mortgaged to AA'

Thanks buggerinbt. Very interesting that aacultwatch is on top of the many issues we have discussed on this site surrounding AA. I checked the website you mentioned-great new blog.

Here is the direct link to it www.leavingaa.com

Another good one is www.nadaytona.org

It is important to realise that most people who go to AA, for whatever reason, come to their senses very very quickly. Certain people get sucked in, possibly through desperation and the sheer theatre of the 'proof by anecdote' arguments. Very, very few people hang around after a year, and the ones that do must be getting something out of the experience, which I imagine to be an ego stroke. These oldtimers con newbies into believing that they want what you have got (!!).

The Jellinek theory was fabricated and funded by Marty Mann.

It is a great pity that 'stinkin-thinkin.com' was derailed by death threats, but it is difficult to deal with people who are having their beliefs threatened.

I am sure that it is difficult to realise that one has been a cult member, and to admit to recruiting. I have the utmost sympathy with people in this situation, I really do.

It is good news that the nhs is waking up to this.

The orange papers were a labour of of love, and if anybody can find a factual inaccuracy, then please inform Orange.

Most AA groups consist of a very, very few oldtimers, a few fervent newcombers, and not much in between. (They are known as 'Big Bills' and 'Little Bills'.

I love this thread

It's had more bumps than a Maternity Unit......

My God, this thread has just been re-re-re-animated. Go and eat some brains or something willya?

www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

theorange-papers.orgwww.blamedenial.co.uk/youtubestatuseight.html

No not that, there's no brains in that.

YUBVU! AA saved my DHs life and continues to do so for him and thousands of others every day. I am sorry but until you have been in the position of living with an alcoholic you cannot imagine the suffering it brings to them and their families. Most treatment centres run on 12 step programmes because they are proven to work. Most addicts - there will always be exceptions - cannot fully recover without the continual support of a group such as AA. AA is not a religious group, many people I know who are members of AA do not believe in God. They believe in a higher power (whatever that means to them) which is helping them through. I have seen the power of the group support in action and the 12th step of any AA member is to help others. Going to detox and rehab without AA (or similar) support afterwards is almost useless My DH just goes to AA once a week now - to remind him of where he came from and what can happen. Some people feel the need to go more than that. Do more research - alcoholism IS an illness and it can be passed on. Can't you guess I feel rather strongly about this.

motheroftwoboys

Don't get upset about this 'zombie thread'.

I just assume it's the Op bumping every time with a new name.

With a bit a luck once it's full it will go away for good.

www.baldwinresearch.com/treatmentdoesnt2004.cfm

www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

www.morerevealed.com/library/coc/chapter7.htm

hamsnetwork.org/effective.pdf

Bloody hell! I see what you mean. but, as we know, alcoholics are the masters of denial. Maybe the OP is trying not to admit that she is an alcie - specially if her DP is going to al anon. I remember when my DH first tried AA before he had even been for his first detox - he said that it "wasn't for him" as "those people were much worse than him". He eventually changed his tune thank God but only after half a dozen detoxes and a long stint in rehab. Mind you. al anon was never for me.

Here you have a UK surgeon convicted of downloading child pornography.
You guessed it-he is mandated to Alcoholics Anonymous. Please dont send your kids to AA. Dont take them with you either.

A consultant surgeon convicted of downloading child pornography from the Internet today escaped being struck off the medical register.
Christopher Lattimer was suspended from practising for nine months at a hearing of the General Medical Council, in Hallam Street, central London.
Mr Lattimer, 40, admitted downloading the images "out of sexual curiosity" on three separate drink-fuelled occasions.
During the Internet sessions, Mr Lattimer, of Wallington, Surrey, "was clicking on everything before him," the hearing was told.
Mr Lattimer was charged after police searched his former home at Acol, Kent, last October, sparked by the international child porn crackdown Operation Ore.
Lattimer escaped a jail sentence in February after pleading guilty on January 10 to ten counts of making indecent photographs of children in April and May last year.
He also asked for 40 similar offences to be taken into account when he was sentenced to three years community rehabilitation by Thanet Magistrates Court.
Lattimer's sentence depended on the condition that he receive psychotherapy, continue to pursue treatment for alcohol addiction and attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-194057/Child-porn-surgeon-escapes-struck-off.html#ixzz1hPcyfhFZ

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-194057/Child-porn-surgeon-escapes-struck-off.html

Whether you think A.A. is a cult or not, you might find this helps to inform your opinion: “Synanon Cult Influence on Alcoholics Anonymous, Addiction Treatment and the Criminal Justice System 1968-2017” aaminority.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/minority-report-2017-alcoholics.html

The attempt to combine Synanon brainwashing treatment with 12-step treatment in rehabs might go some way to explain why AA appears to be a cult to some. Cult experts have been aware that some cults have been focusing their recruitment activities in drug rehabilitation, AA and other 12 Step fellowships since at least the mid-1990s.

When cults and institutions cloak themselves with AA’s Big Book/twelve steps, claim to be AA, and recruit alcoholics and addicts into establishing specific kinds of AA meetings, then it is difficult to tell the difference between AA and these cults and institutions. Cults recruit in society, that doesn’t make society a cult. What is happening in AA is reflective of what is happening in society at large. Alcoholics and drug addicts aren’t the only people in society falling prey to psychological manipulation by individuals or groups who operate programs of extreme influence. These people do make use of the internet to indoctrinate and control your thoughts - So take care what you read online!