to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

jesuswhatnext-Yes I beieve there are lovin,caring people in AA that do not wish harm on others.Many give much of their time to help others.
At the same time,because people mean well-does not mean they are not doing harm. A part from the terrible sexual abusues and financial scams that people are victimized in AA-there are also a much more subtle underlying
influence that has ill effects emotionally.

For example-even though some people say you can just leave AA-for many it is not so easy.It is frowned upon.For some-once they stop going to meetings-the people they made friends with no longer treat them the same way.
Some cut ties altogether. AA does believe you need to go to meetings forever,even after decades of being sober. It can become another addiction for some.

JWN-if you want to mean-that is your choice.i thought you wanted to have a rational discussion on these topics. We are reading the same thread about AA being a dangerous cult.That is why I am on this thread.

Jwn, I think you are right!

www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

Here is a great link for those that are interested.

so, a person wants to leave but gets frowned upon - big fucking deal! if thats the worst that happens what on earth are you worried about? i would suggest growing a pair!! i get frowned upon for all sorts of reasons, do i care? not a diddly fucking squat!

Very interesting thread - have not had time to read all of it! There were one or two things I would like to comment on, having been to a dozen or so Al Anon meetings as wife of an alcoholic. Al Anon works the same steps and I think that Step 1 was really helpful to me - I cannot control my dh's drinking. I can however take control of how I let it affect my life, which is where detachment becomes a very useful tool.

For the alcoholic I think the powerlessness has to be interpreted as powerless if you have one drink - that it is something you cannot be in control of but you can avoid. This is something really important for my dh (and many alcoholics) to recognise, as in his struggle he has frequently fooled himself into thinking 'one won't do any harm'... by the way he does not get on with AA at all, but mainly because other people's misery depresses him, he can't imagine sharing his problems with strangers, and he feels there are some people who 'boast'.

I have read some of the online stuff about the cultishness of AA (and therefore Al Anon) - not convinced myself. In the UK there is no legal coercion to join, (this would by AA's own philosphy reduce the effectiveness, as it is recognised success is unlikely unless someone really wants to stop for themselves), and it is not difficult to leave.

One other thing - about being blanked in the street - isn't this more or less what we are meant to do to preserve anonymity? I have seen people from Al Anon a couple of times and been careful not to try to start a conversation or anything in public.

AA and NA are clandestine entities.They describe themselves as non-professionals having no leaders,no counselors, security monitors or surveillance present at meetings. Many court ordered felons, fresh out of lock-up, are mandated to attend AA/NA meetings to comply with the terms of their probation.

Compliance of probation should be a transparent process, not handled by anonymous volunteers.Anonymous felons attending non-professional meetings mixing with vulnerable non-felons is an obvious high risk situation.

Where is the common sense in having probation compliance handled by a secret group of leaderless volunteers. It is well documented that these groups have a history of non-accountability and cover-ups.

www.green-papers.org

Here is a great link for those who want an alternative view.

You keep linking to the same few (American) campaigning websites as if they were evidence. I asked about AA's own figures and you said they've got some, but you weren't helpful enough to say where. Unverified statements by random posters on an anti-AA website do not qualify.

Oh dear god it's like fucking groundhog day on here.

Sorry Annie that wasn't aimed at you

Altinkum, mea culpa, no not aimed at you, aimed at be free harping on about court mandated aa.

Orange papers utter bollocks, think we are on the same page

My issue with befrees post to be specific is that this thread has gone over again and again and again the fact that courts in the uk don't mandate aa, so it's not a relevant point, but it just keeps coming back. The ultimate bad penny of circular arguments.

And also bored of the plethora of American posters making assumptions that what is true in the states must be so elsewhere. Guess what guys, there is a whole wide world out there that does things differently from the states.

I knew you didn't mean me too!

Actually this thread has prompted me to dig out my groundhog day DVD and watch it again so not all bad

altinkum - what an awful thing to go through with your dad, so heartbreaking. Alchoholism truly is such a destructive illness. I am enjoying reading your posts as you are saying what I would like to say but can't quite phrase it as well as you.

run if anyone wanted to look up AA to get an alternative view then it's quite simple to look online and access the resources that you are on about. Is this some personal crusade that you are on? You could take it up with the AA world service board.

Can't we just say that some people find AA incredibly helpful and supportive and some people just aren't into it and find other means of recovery? What else is there to say? As I said, anyone can look on the internet to research something.

Yes I was doing research on AA when I found this thread about AA being a dangerous cult. You do not agree that it is.I agree that it is a cult.
There have been links in reference to the UK on this site. People on probation in the UK go to AA.People from the UK have posted on this site they feel AA is a cult. Why be upset with me that I am on this discussion of AA being a cult. If you do not like it -you do not have to go on this thread or read the posts.

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shoalhavenaa.com.au%2Fattachments%2Fdownload%2F24%2FATTACHMENT_TO_TOPIC_002-PREDATORS.doc.pdf&rct=j&q=reason%20for%20topic%20and%20additional%20background%20information%20predators&ei=rNfjTdO_N8O5tgeN2LG2Bw&usg=AFQjCNHQjS8UpaFonoN_W1CFbwFRafRb3A

Predators in UK AA

www.stabroeknews.com/2011/opinion/editorial/06/16/alcohol-abuse/

People in the UK listen more to their doctor to quit drinking than by going to AA!