to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Jeannotplaying - I have no idea if steiner is a cult though as you say some of their practices seem very cultish. However having read some of the threads (many of which have now been removed) about it, the pro-steiner activists are so on a differnt plane to me that I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. Very dogmatic, rambling incoherent posts, inability to truly absorb what anyone else said or address their concerns.

They did/do their cause a great disservice on here as I for one wouldn;t have even considered it afetr reading their ramblings.

A bit like the OP here - easy to have a discussion about what it is you dislike about AA, engage people who have a view, recommend alternative treatment which might be equally or more helpful. But no the OP and other supporters appear to want to "tell" everyone who has found AA helpful that they are wrong, their experiencs are wrong, that their way of arguing is wrong...etc

I don;t see the point the only people who are convinced by this approach are the ones who joined the thread already convinced, everyone else is sticking by their previous impressions of AA positive or negative becasue all the anti-AA camp are doing is repeating their arguments time and time again without truly listening to what others are saying.

But its good entertainment for someone like me who thankfully isn't in need of help at the moment.

of course Miflaw and otehrs aren't going to be convinced anyway because they have been brainwashed by the Cult

In fact they are probably in the pay of the Cult...

Kewcumber, I was joking about Steiner being a cult, and when I told my friends that, I thought I was doing Steiner a disservice. I used the word 'cult' to denote a very high level of enthusiasm, like, say, the Rocky Horror show and its 'cult' following.

I have just found the Steiner threads and I see what you mean about the levels of conviction on both sides. I knew that our lifestyles wouldn't accomodate the Steiner levels of conviction that the Steiner people I have met had, so I didn't consider it or look into in detail it for us. I really liked the idea of not starting formal education until seven, and having the same teacher for seven years, etc. Up until today I have been vaguely jealous of people who have put their dc through Steiner education. But now I am reading about partner swapping, bullying, weird religion, and I have only read one thread. I had absolutely no idea it was so controversial. Jeepers.

(back to Steiner theads, hijack over)

Jean - you didn;t see the worst of them as they were deleted! It was like car crash TV!

Agree starting school a little later would be beneficial for many children, though my DS's year i reception has been so much like nursery that I don't really think its been a big transition for him at all (but then he is a November birthday)

Kew, I am blessing mainstream state education just for being non-controversial. I had no idea about all this. I see that Steiner use the word 'fellowship', which AA also does. Is that a code word for a cult? And I see that Montessori accused of being a cult. (I had always thought that Montessori was a highly desireable educational approach, esp the bit about how the children have to put things away. Are there any other wholesome appearing organisations which are (rightly or wrongly) accused of cult tendencies? Perhaps they can only be called cults if they have equal levels of fanaticism both for and against. I thought that Home Ed was controversial. Is there a rabid anti-Rocky Horror show movement? If not, then it loses its 'potentially dangerous cult' status.

Or just tell me (apart from bf/formula) there have been fanatical clashes about on mn. What else have I assumed is innocent even though it has a cult following? Neighbours? Countdown? Doctor Who? Henman Hill? Do any of these have equally zealous anti-fans desperate to expose them on the internet? Homeopathy? Any other educational approaches in particular.

This is really interesting. They started their anti-AA blog with a discussion of the cult aspects. What next?

stinkin-thinkin.com/2009/03/20/alcoholics-anonymous-aa-is-a-cult/

Someone on the Scientology thread (that really is a cult, right?) said that you can tell it is a cult by how the cult members respond to criticism of their dogma. This thread has been derailed by the sexual abuses in AA. But this is a very interesting post purely devoted to the cult aspects.

Just a note that ALL of the links are still available to view on this thread and have not been deleted.People can read them and form there own opinion.

Fuck off, befree. Stop posting the same thing. We know that there are predators in AA. You've made your point. Mumsnetters know how to follow linkees.

stinkin-thinkin.com/2010/08/08/aa-and-the-treatment-industry/

And they also address the problem of where people can go for help with alcohol abuse problems.

stinkin-thinkin.com/2009/04/01/what-then-if-not-aa/

and the comments on this one were fun.

stinkin-thinkin.com/2010/07/09/top-ten-you-know-youre-an-aa-member-if/comment-page-1/#comments

Altinkum; did you really meet Stanton Peele?
He certainly has an opinion. As a professional, with experience yourself, did you find him credible?

Stanton Peele attacks the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous:
yourbrainondrugs.net/2011/05/stanton-peele-attacks-the-cult-of-alcoholics-anonymous/

In absolute numbers quite a few people have benefited from AA. However, in terms of percentages of those exposed to AA, the number helped by AA is small ? about 5% remain in AA as long as a year, according to AA's own surveys.www.peele.net/faq/aarole.html

peele.net/bookstore/index02.html

www.peele.net/lib/bufe.html

He doesn't seem to subscribe to the lifetime abstinence theory:

alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.blogspot.com/2007/11/stanton-peele-only-free-person-in.html

And he is certainly no fan of AA:

www.huffingtonpost.com/stanton-peele/aa-isnt-the-best-solution_b_629004.html

What did he say about AA when you met him? Has he changed his mind?

www.ukna.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=166:guidelines-for-children-welcome-meetings&catid=76:pac-guidelines

UK NA does allow children in some of their meetings.

Jeeper! So they actually DO welcome to NA meetings! Jeepers! That should NOT be allowed. I hope that anyone who has stated that childers are not allowed near these people will come back and comment. Creepers!

I have to say that I did believe the mns who said that that was untrue. That is quite disturbing. Have you told social services?

I have no experience of NA- I can only reiterate that the only children I have ever seen in AA meetings have been babes in arms.

well, today im off to a womens AA meeting which has play facilities for toddlers and a room with ps and wi stuff in for older kids.

i have no idea about NA, perhaps some groups have the same facilities for children?

No idea about NA - I have only ever written here about AA.

www.aa.org.au/members/documents/predators.pdf

Here is another internal AA document discussing predator issues
within AA.

I do drink too much - but I think this is because I had a really unstable childhood and I am not comfortable with expressing anger. For example - Mummy was crazy therefore there was no space for me to be angry.

I am not bitching - just saying. Therefore you grow up to be a "nice" person who is never angry.

I went to AA for 3 weeks 8 years ago, I have tried it a couple of times since.

I have issues with the word "alcoholic" - I think it conjures up visions of people rolling in the gutter.

I think many of us, including me, are "alcohol dependent".

I did 7 days and then my DS1 (20) drove me nuts to the point that I had a headache, jawache, sore throat. All psychological.

BUT - AA is not for me.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/7250576.stm

Here is an incident where a man that was let out of an open prison for the day to attend an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, instead he skipped the meeting and raped a minor girl 16.

He was in the open prison for attempted MURDER.

befree, what's that story really got to do with AA?

He was in an open prison. The whole point of an open prison is that the offenders are allowed out to attend a number of different events and appointments. That the scottish judicial system saw fit to allow such a violent nut-job to be in an open prison is the real failure here. That he lied about attending AA is irrelevant.

I think that the prison authorities are at fault here. There have been numerous cases over the years of felons doing a runner when on day release to attend funerals. I guess 'AA meetings' should be added to the list of excuses to get a day out and abscond. Pretty scary to think that characters like this could actually be in AA meetings though. If he hadn't raped that 16 year old girl he would have gone to the meeting and met people looking for help. I don't understand why he was not accompanied.

befree - all that tells me is on that day, in that town, at that time I would have been safer at the AA meeting on the basis that one rapist wasn't there but elsewhere.

"Pretty scary to think that characters like this could actually be in AA meetings though."

Characters like that could be sat next to you in church. Open prisons allow inmates out to attend a place of worship.

Janine Di Giovanni (two awards from Amnesty International for her
coverage of human rights abuses) .uld appear to think that something is amiss in this 'cult'.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2009615/Alcoholics-Anonymous-killed-marriage-The-love-war-reporters-survived-battles-one.html#ixzz1Qmjc0zcS