to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

he didnt say that at all you bloody numpty! - you were the one who wrote about 'real alcoholics' and how you defined them, ffs, read what you post!

Actually, MIFLAW did say

"but you sound like someone who knows very little about alcoholism, alcoholics, the attitude to the alcoholic in law or the operation of AA".

That IS the "your not a real alcoholic" approach to discounting a persons ideas.

I was a member for 5 years and when someone wanted to discredit a person's views, that was the standby ploy - "well, you don't know what your talking about because your not a member, not an alcoholic".

JRHarris you made sense to me!

jesuswhatnext

I'm sorry, I don't understand why you are getting angry at me because he did say it. Please reread the comments on 25-Jul-11 18:13:21 and 25-Jul-11 18:14:47. MIFLAW clearly told me "you clearly do not have a bloody clue". I don't know how you think I defined a "real alcoholic", can you explain to me what I said wrong?

I am just trying to warn people about some of the "other" AA members that do not follow the 12 Steps correctly. Step 5 is one that is not followed very good by some members because they tell you that you are not a "real alcoholic and don't know what you are talking about", they expect you to tell them the "exact nature of our wrongs", so that they will listen to you. The only problem is that some, not all AA members, will "fudge" the story to make everyone think they are an Alcoholic and they are not God or another human being that they have chosen.

The other problem with some members is Step 4, "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves" and many of the "other" AA members don't follow Step 4 either. Step 4 clearly says "ourselves" not "others". By making statements about other peoples experiences that they know nothing about, they are taking someone's inventory which is definitely against the Big Book.

I'm sorry I got you mad, this stuff doesn't happen in my group.

JR

I'll spell it out for you.

You are the one talking about "real alcoholics" and suggesting that there is some failsafe way of telling the difference between someone who murders while drunk and someone who murders and is an alcoholic. And, in case there was any doubt, you say "I would not want a murderer to be my sponsor whether they were drinking or not when they committed the crime. Murderers, rapists and thieves have a different mind set than a "real alcoholic" that just started drinking too much." In other words, a murderer is a murderer, a "real alcoholic" is a real alcoholic, and never the twain shall meet.

Now, THAT position, RIGHT THERE, the one that YOU posted, is contrary to the most basic tenets of AA (e.g. Tradition 3 - the ONLY requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking) and would not gain acceptance in any AA room I have ever sat in, because the many AAs I know would agree that "there but for the grace of God go I" - they (and I) can all imagine situations where, if the dice had fallen differently, it would be them on a murder charge (or whatever.) So, I'll reiterate; based on that post, I surmise that you know very little about alcoholism and how it operates; or about alcoholics; or about how AA works. Maybe you are a real alcoholic yourself; but, if you've got sober in AA, then please name the meetings so that, if ever I'm in your area, I can avoid them like the plague.

As to the challenge to your knowledge of the law in relation to alcoholism, you clearly do NOT understand it, as you repeatedly act on the assumption that the courts can send someone to AA or that the UK system operates a plea bargaining arrangement, both of which are verifiably factually false.

You see, i'm not discounting your ideas - I'm discounting the factual errors in your post.

Incidentally, "Step 5 is one that is not followed very good by some members because they tell you that you are not a "real alcoholic and don't know what you are talking about", they expect you to tell them the "exact nature of our wrongs", so that they will listen to you" appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of Step 5; no one "expects" you to tell them anything. In fact, it is clearly set out in the Big Book and the 12 and 12 that the "other human being" doesn't even need to be in AA, so who could possibly have that "expectation"?

FWIW I don't think ANYONE in AA follows the Steps "correctly" - huge numbers of happy, sober members do not do the Steps at all, and the rest of us just give it our best shot; there are no prizes for being the best, just a life at peace with yourself and with others. Again, your understanding of how AA works therefore seems to be less thorough than you would have us believe, which again makes me feel comfortable in my challenge.

I think the big problem with AA is that it is self run by its members under the umbrella of a corporation that refuses to take any accountability for the members of that fellowship. The basic text of that corporation is the Big Book and the 12x12, which closely monitors its existence and validity. In fact the members refuse to even admit that it is a corporation. It has a president and board of directors and lawyers just like a corporation and it takes legal action against anyone or organization that attempts to change or use those texts without the corporate AA seal of approval on it. Any new text has to have "conference approved" stamped on it, or it is not considered an official AA text. Any attempt at producing and distributing anything even close to the Big Book or 12X12 is quickly taken care of by corporate lawyers of AA under local and International copyright laws.

In the UK, Corporate AA actually sued an Intergroup that was listed on their corporate website in Germany for publishing an unauthorized "Big Book" translated into German. There were no "official" corporate AA German translations of the document, and the Intergroup was just doing it to help out fellow Alcoholics in need who could not understand the text in other languages. They weren't publishing the German translation of the "Big Book" for money. Corporate AA in the UK has taken legal actions against many of its fellowship for things like this.

I am afraid that AA has been infiltrated by rogue members who do not follow the 12 Steps because they insist on taking other peoples inventory constantly, which is against Step 4, "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves" and insisting that anyone talking about AA give a full accounting of their misdeeds with Alcohol or they are discredited which is against Step 5, "Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs."

I have noticed this extensively online, especially in this thread. AA was not meant to be discussed by these rogue AA members in an online forum, because what is said here, does not stay here and they are breaking the Steps and Traditions of corporate AA in doing so. I am afraid of even mentioning that AA is a corporation because the rogue members of the fellowship will immediately deny that it is a corporation. I hope before they do this, that they will open up their Big Book and 12X12 and find the copyright on the cover page of a corporation that has used corporate lawyers to take legal action against members of the fellowship trying to help other Alcoholics by translating or distributing the text for free.

AA has grown too big and it has let members of its fellowship continually break its Steps and Traditions freely, while taking legal action against anyone or organization that hurts the corporate sales of its literature. If corporate AA were to take as much time money and effort to protect the values and morals spelled out in the Big Book and the 12X12, the members of the fellowship would be much safer.

"especially in this thread." Name names - who are these "rogue members" of AA and what have they done which, in your opinion, contravenes either UK law or the traditions of AA? Am I one of them? Spell out, please, what I have done, or else retract that statement.

"it has let members of its fellowship continually break its Steps and Traditions freely" - another fundamental misunderstanding on your part; it is not possible to "break" a step; while AA cannot do anything about a member who "breaks" a tradition. All it can do is refuse to allow a given group to use the AA name. There is no group on this site so who has broken what?

You seem willing to throw allegations around without intorducing any facts into the mix.

I am sorry but I do not do other peoples inventory per Step 4, so I will not name names and I was only talking generically. Another thing that I have noticed is that this is not an AA meeting, and it especially is not a "closed" meeting. Hopefully many people have not been to a "closed" AA meeting, because the rogue AA members who do not follow the 12 Steps and Traditions have a tendency to belittle people in these meetings heavily. Doing things like telling them they are not an Alcoholic, attempting to make them prove they are which can result in "fabricated" stories of drunkenness (true only sometimes, usually they just embellish it a little to gain credibility with the group).

One thing I have noticed about rogue AA members is that they like quoting "you can take what you want and leave the rest". They do this so they can break the Steps and Traditions of AA at will. That statement is not in the "Big Book" or the 12X12. There are other groups that follow the Big Book and the 12X12 that are not AA and they do not belittle people breaking the Steps or Traditions. They view the Ten Commandments first and the 12 Steps secondly and are called Alcoholics Victorious and Celebrate Recovery. These groups are very big with Alcoholics Victorious starting just shortly after AA and Celebrate Recovery starting in about the last 20 years. You will never see one of these members belittling or taking inventory of anyone online. They take the 12 Steps and the Bible very seriously and follow both to the word, not with made up slogans by rogue AA members such as "you can take what you want and leave the rest."

ohhh mif!! yesterday a 'babe' today a 'rogue'!!! im finding you more attractive by the day!

I apologize if you believe I called you a rogue, it was not meant that way, I was talking about the "other" sometimes rogue members of AA who attempt to take other peoples inventory in an online discussion. What I am doing is just presenting my impressions of this "open" discussion and others I have seen about AA. Usually they end up with the "AA is Spiritual not Religious" argument. Since you can pick your own "Higher Power", I have chosen God and the 10 Commandments brought down by Moses from Mount Sinai as my Higher Power right now. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.

" I was talking about the "other" sometimes rogue members of AA who attempt to take other peoples inventory in an online discussion." No - you specified on THIS thread - "especially" so, as I recall. So, if not me, who?

" Since you can pick your own "Higher Power", I have chosen God and the 10 Commandments brought down by Moses from Mount Sinai as my Higher Power right now. I hope that doesn't offend anyone." Why would anyone care less who or what you choose as your HP? Again, you really are coming across as someone who doesn't understand or "get" how AA works - it's like you've read about it in a book but never seen it, like a desert dweller trying to imagine snow.

Believe what you like, it doesn't matter. No one cares! It is whatever works for you. I sense you were trying to make a point here but I am afraid it has genuinely fallen flat for me - I have no idea what you are on about.

Hmm. What pisses me off about this is that when people argue back and forward, backc and forward, back and forward about semantics or doctine or the truth of each others posts, it put this thread in the "most active" column on mnet.

Some people might start to read the thread, sometimes people who are really in need of help, for themselves, or for other people. But people who are in need of genuine help for a problem to do with alcohol. And all they will see if people arguing. And that is never, ever, ever going to help them.

Please stop. Or take it somewhere else.

I am sorry you feel that way, I apologize if I have said anything to get you angry. I wouldn't want to say anything to get a recovering alcoholic angry, because it can hurt their sobriety. I just mentioned who my Higher Power was so that I can be rigorously honest.

I know I shouldn't be letting anyone else taking my inventory, because if I answer any questions they will just want to take my inventory more. I will tell you that I have taken Bible Classes studying the Bible and I did the same thing with the Big Book. I am sure that I can quote passages from both much better than the average Catholic or AA member.

I do feel intimidated by the personal remarks about my credentials and experiences with AA and the Bible. I hope nobody ends up in a groups of rogue AA members who beak the covenants of both in closed meetings.

JR I'm confused. Although step 4 says that we should make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves, where does it instruct that you're unable to offer insight into other people's problems.

"I am sorry you feel that way, I apologize if I have said anything to get you angry." You haven't - I've said I don't care who your HP is, not that i'm angry. I mean I genuinely DO NOT CARE and wondered why you were telling us all.

"I am sure that I can quote passages from both much better than the average Catholic or AA member." I am sure you can too. That is excellent. Have a badge.

Venus is right, I'm not coming back to this thread. Argue amongst yourselves. If anyone who is having problems with drink has found her/his way here, my advice would be, forget all this sterile in-fighting for now (of which I am as guilty as any) - head instead for the "Brave Babes" thread, where AA members and non-AA members alike forget the doctrine and instead try to help each other deal with their drink problems.

venusandmars,

I'm sorry, I was writing my post just as you made yours. I agree with you and this bickering should stop. I have seen this type of bickering in both open and closed meetings in some areas, not all. I think that to get the help you need you have to pick your home group extremely carefully, or you get extremely powerful unknown people with backgrounds and agendas that may not be in your best interest. This is could be why many people who leave rehabs and take AA as an aftercare end up killing themselves.

Again, no offense met. The title of this thread is "Am I being Unreasonable to consider aa a dangerous cult?" I don't believe that all of it is dangerous, if you follow the instructions as written and you use a higher power, which I have taken as God. Bickering like this doesn't happen at this level in most churches except in the basements where some of the AA members have deviated from the writings of Bill Wilson because of slogans such as "you can take what you want and leave the rest". Bill Wilson never wrote that, it was made up by someone.

Haven't been on this thread for yonks, but what I can contribute is that I left AA because my so called 'sponsor' did do the 'real v not real alcoholic' and there was an almost playground divide between the so-called two. i couldn't handle it - I wanted to sort out my drinking issues, not be dragged into a fight!

im leaving this thread too - im not angry, my sobriety is not threatend in any way, i just think you are a nut job! bye!

Whitershadeofpale,

Step 4, "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves" does not say you can't ask for advice. It does say "of ourselves" and does not say anything about other people. If you ask for advice that is fine, but some AA members, which I consider rogue members, demand that they be allowed to give you their advice and find out everything they can about you before they even know if you are doing or even know of the 12 Steps.

lovecorrie,

As you can see, the AA members come in different types. Some are very controlling and always result in name calling and personal attacks. To find out and check out a different type of AA meeting that to me appears to be much safer and free from these antics and you are religious, you may want to look into Alcoholics Victorious or Celebrate Recovery, google them on the web they may have a meeting in your area. If you are not Religious, you can try SMART or Rational Recovery, they are not very big in the UK, but you can take them online. All four of these alternatives do not appear to have the same type of bickering as AA does.

I'm sorry JR but I don't understand that logic. Just because it doesn't mention making an invantory for others doesn't mean it's not allowed or forbidden. Just that the 12 steps point out what AA believe will be the most fundamental actions required in order to achieve sobriety.

I've always seen AA as being similar in set up to the British Constitution. There are written laws (the steps and traditions) but also conventions i.e the Royal Prerogative which I see as being things like the slogans. Just because one is written and one not doesn't mean that they're not a major part for many people and arguably as important.

I'm afraid that in my opinion you appear to be terribly fixed on what is written. In my experience the strength of AA has always laid in it's ability to be tailored to fit the needs of that paticular group or member whilst having a existing and long-standing framework. As the saying that you dislike so much goes "you take what you like and leave the rest".

Whitershadeofpale,

I go by the Ten Commandments, I hope you don't mind. With the Ten Commandments you can't "take what you want and leave the rest." I use them in all of my decisions as any God fearing person should. I am not what I would consider terribly fixed on what is written except if it is in the bible.

I am not trying to push my religion on anyone, they are free to do as they like. I do not tell anyone that to be my friend and be accepted, that they have to be Catholic, Jewish or Buddhist and follow their rituals.

What I don't understand is I offered 4 alternatives to AA, two highly Religious ones and two non religious ones. Why aren't we talking about those, instead of my qualifications and experiences.

I am willing to follow the 12 Steps written by Bill Wilson, even though by claiming our Higher Power can be anything you want is against the Ten Commandments, notably the second commandment, "You shall have no other gods before me" he is performing sacrilege and trying to promote it. I have taken sone of the slogans devised for AA and do quote them from time to time as my reason for not being completely outraged by teaching of these actions. "Live and Let Live", "One Day at a Time."

sadly, this woman and her 'posse' are in all the local groups . I am going to look at online alternatives..

lovecorrie,

I think that it would be a good idea to look into other groups than AA if the group you are in is over run with rogue AA members who take every chance they get to demean and belittle people. If you look on the internet forums you will see this all of the time. They usually just get angry and start calling you names. It is extremely unsettling in person, especially in a closed meeting. It can lead to a major relapse.

Like I said if you are religious and want to follow the 12 Steps you can go to Alcoholics Victorious or Celebrate Recovery where this abuse by rogue AA members who aren't even your Sponsor does not appear to be happening. You most likely won't get the verbal and psychological abuse associated with the rogue AA members that are running around now. Check online, you may be able to find a meeting in your area, but they are not as prevalent as AA. If you are non religious try SMART or Rational Recovery, they are online, but not really in person in the UK. There is a possibility that you could get a meeting started in the UK if you found enough people who no longer wanted to be around abusive rogue Sponsors in AA.

This is what got me...She took me to to one side and started asking me how I felt when i wanted a drink, did I feel happy, did I feel anticipation, was I excited...At this point, I had been sober with AA for about 2 months. I remember saying that yes I always used to look forward to having a drink, well to having several drinks, but I didn't actually turn into Pavlov's dog at the sound of a can opening. Anyway, at this point, she got terribly excited and said 'Yes, yes, you ARE an alcoholic, some people are heavy drinkers, but cannot possibly be alcoholics because they do not have a spiritual emptiness..' I started to go to her house for Big Book Study and it, quite frankly, left me dead inside. after about 4 weeks I should have had my 'spiritual awakening' I should have found My God. I, um, hadn't..I'd just done a load of 'homework' and felt nothing. I went to a couple more meetings after that, but just felt so horribly sad. I was, I feel, never ever going to have that happy clappy higher power 'thing'. I didn't turn up for the next meeting and got a text, explained that I didn't feel that AA was for me and got a rather unpleasant message back. I had recently been diagnosed bi-polar and had mentioned this in a meeting. i was informed at that point by my AA buddies that bi-polar does not exist it is 'just old fashioned alcoholism. the text reminded me of this and that I needed to turn back to AA. It's very sad that I came across these people and that they do, literally 'run' AA where I live (and it's a big city..they have infiltrated all the meetings... :( ) I am managing to be 'moderate' without any outside help and I know I can be sober - I have done a year before. Sad that these cult isms do exist and do put people off.

lovecorrie,

I know what you mean about some AA members, not all are that way, just some. I think that deep down inside they are trying to run peoples lives because it gives them a power trip. I wish I knew how to stay away from them, but the rogue AA members are everywhere. You can usually tell them from the foul language and put downs they use, especially when they have just met you and disagree with your views or ideas. Hopefully if you do go to 12 Step meetings you can find one that is not full of the ones on a power trip from the power they think they have over everyone's lives.