to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Seriously?! That's what you took from that article? That she thinks something is wrong with AA?

I note also that it is her (French) husband who uses the word "cult".

"Culte" in French does not mean (in its normal sense) "cult". it means "denomination" or "(non-Catholic) religious service": a Protestant church would be a "lieu de culte".

He is therefore most likely using the word (jokingly, as the article says) to mean "my tribe", "my gang" rather than what English speakers understand by "my cult".

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2009615/Alcoholics-Anonymous-killed-marriage-The-love-war-reporters-survived-battles-one.html#ixzz1Qmjc0zcS

"Alcoholics Anonymous Killed My Marriage"

That's the same story that TerribleTriplets posted. I can summarise it for you:

"I had a drama-filled and chaotic relationship with an alcoholic. When he finally kicked the booze he calmed down a lot. I don't like the 'normal' him, I preferred the drunken booze-hound."

AA didn't kill that marriage. What killed that marriage is that she is a person who fell for the charm, unpredictability and frequent drama of an alcoholic. I'm not saying that in a pejorative sense, I did exactly the same myself.

Such a relationship revolves around the alcoholic and rises and falls on a tide of their alcohol consumption. Take the booze away and the relationship changes massively because the chaos and drama goes away. Real life starts to intrude. The power dynamic between the couple becomes fundamentally different. And many many relationships simply don't survive that.

The thing is, of course, is that this would've happened whether he had stopped drinking with the help of AA, or Rational Recovery, or with counselling, or if he had simply decided all by himself to stop. She fell in love with a drunk, he (eventually) stopped being a drunk and, in doing so, he stopped being the person she fell in love with. It's sad but the fact that the fall-out from addictions fuck up relationships is hardly AA's fault.

Can I ask what you read into that story?

I feel sorry for the woman who lost her husband to the dangerous cult of AA.
This is all to common to spouses.I hear of these stories often.AA is not marriage friendly.It is a Dangerous cult.

www.nadaytona.org

Insane woman murders boyfriend and cuts him up for stew.
Judge sends her to mandated AA Meetings. Who is sitting next to you
at your meeting or your Teens meeting? AA is not a safe place.

news.usti.net/home/news/cn/?/world.law/2/wed/be/Uus-woodry.Rwzx_FA9.html

Befree

You are starting to sound unhinged now.

Do yourself a favour and give it a rest.

"Who is sitting next to you
at your meeting or your Teens meeting?"

None of these people.

Because I attend AA in the UK.

What's that? So does nearly every single one of the other AA members posting on this thread? Really? Gosh. Befree, did YOU know about this?

www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

stinkin-thinkin.com/keep-coming-back/

stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com/

Miflaw, would you comment AFTER you have read these links? After you have read the links, not why you dismiss them. Try not to be sarcastic, just read the links, and then comment. Thanks, babe.

Please note that the stop13stepinaa site is owned by someone who was in AA for 36 years, and left two months ago.

:)

'You are starting to sound unhinged now.

Do yourself a favour and give it a rest.'

I think that is gaslighting, as I understand it.

I'm guessing this was posted before but just in case, here it is again.

aacultwatch.co.uk/default.aspx

It's a U.K. website dedicated to exposing bad/cult alcoholics anonymous meetings in the United Kingdom. Apparently there are bad meetings and bad people in the U.K (that attend AA), contradictory to what MIFLAW will have people beleive.

"I'm guessing this was posted before but just in case, here it is again.

aacultwatch.co.uk/default.aspx

It's a U.K. website dedicated to exposing bad/cult alcoholics anonymous meetings in the United Kingdom. Apparently there are bad meetings and bad people in the U.K (that attend AA), contradictory to what MIFLAW will have people beleive."

How ironic - I think it was me that posted the link to that site!

I have no intention of saying that there are no bad people in AA meetings - there are - nor that there are no bad AA meetings - there are.

What I strenuously object to is the following;

the idea that everything applicable to American AA is applicable to UK AA - it is not, both because the "internal culture" of AA is different (UK AA is less dogmatic, which is why AAcultwatch exists - we don't like those meetings either!) and the environment in which it operates (judges cannot mandate anyone to attend AA, and there are no minors attending AA that I have ever met)

the idea that "bad people" are somehow peculiar to AA; you are just as likely to bump into an undisclosed murderer in your supermarket as in AA (where do you think these people go when they're not in meetings?) Indeed, it is my experience that people recovering in AA tend to be more open than those outside

the idea that we should bend or break our traditions (e.g. anonymity, which as you can imagine is pretty key to an organisation called "Alcoholics Anonymous") to suit people who clearly do not attend AA

I wish this pointless, inqaccurate, poisonous thread would hurry up and die.

Steponit

PLEASE don't ever call me "babe" again.

I have already commented on these threads several times having read them, and my comment is always substantially the same:

1. these links clearly refer to American AA which is observably different to UK AA in all sorts of ways - not least in that minors very rarely (in my experience, never) attend UK AA; judges cannot mandate people to attend AA so, in general, everyone there WANTS to be there; attending AA is not fashionable or open in the UK in the same way as it is in the US - again, this increases greatly your chances of meeting sincere people; and the programme is less dogmatic in the UK, so the sway of the sponsor is less pronounced (he or she is not implicitly backed up by everyone else you meet, and members are encouraged to choose their own sponsors, if indeed they have one - I, for example, don't). UK AA is also anti-"intervention" because it is not in keeping with our experience of what works best.

2. Beyond that, their main point seems to be that there are bad people in AA who do bad things outside meetings. Newsflash - there are bad people in my local Sainsbury's who do bad things in the outside world.

3. The "cult" is, I think, more of an individual one - differnet people in different meetings have different experiences. I can only say that it is not my experience- I have left AA several times. I came back because it worked for me (or rather, not going didn't work for me), not because anyone chased me or threatened me or said I had to. I also note that many of the characteristics of "the cult" as identified here also apply to the Church of England - perhaps posting in "religion and spirtituality" would be a good next step for you?

I now plan to bookmark this page so that, next time someone asks me to read something I have already read and comment on something I have already commented on, I can just cut and paste.

It is true that AA is slightly different in the UK than it is in the US markets. I believe that AA Cultwatch watches both markets to try and prevent subversion of AA policy and principals. I have seen AA Cultwatch closely monitoring the UK arena for AA groups attempting to use non "conference approved" literature and the errant groups that "suggest" that their members should not take prescribed anti-depressants which can lead to suicide or violent crimes. Recently they were noting the the Twelve Hour Club, an AA meeting place in Lewiston, Maine was having trouble with abusive sponsors. Just this month one of their members Bob Ryder was arrested for the Murder of Danita Brown. The murder was covered up by Ryder's Sponsor for 2 and a half weeks claiming that he had the right to not speak up because of what the police term as "AA?s confidentiality agreement."

Bob Ryder had just been released from the Becketts House in Litchfield and Belgrade, a Rehab for "the treatment of problematic sexual behaviors" before the murder of Danita Brown. It is unknown at this time if it was "suggested" that he go off his psychiatric medicine or not by the members of the Twelve Hour Club or if other crimes have been committed and not reported because of the AA?s confidentiality agreement.

What I don't understand is why people get so upset and defensive when anything bad about AA is said. Bad groups spring up in all meeting places.

If I were going to the Library and a bad group started going there, I would say something about it and no one would be telling me to be quiet about it. The other library members would be happy I warned them. Why doesn't this happen in AA?

"What I don't understand is why people get so upset and defensive when anything bad about AA is said. Bad groups spring up in all meeting places.

If I were going to the Library and a bad group started going there, I would say something about it and no one would be telling me to be quiet about it. The other library members would be happy I warned them. Why doesn't this happen in AA?"

It DOES happen in AA. That is the purpose of Cultwatch.

I can't speak for anyone else, but what I'M annoyed about is that threads like this make false connections (e.g. postings about abuse at "teen groups" when there ARE no teen groups in the UK; new stories about violent criminals being "sent" to AA by judges when the same link between courts and AA simply does not exist in the UK) which might then put people off from approaching AA at a time when they might actually benefit from it.

I have seen many teenagers from Malvern College in AA meetings. They were told, in 'shares' how lucky they were to have found AA so young. There is plenty of 'conference approved' literature that encourages young people to join. And apparently, 'AA regularly gives talks in schools and in some cases is part of the curriculum. From the AAUK website, 'A.A. for Staff in Education':

www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/professionals/?PageID=88

From the AAUK website again: 'At the present time there are approximately, 85,000 prisoners in England and Wales of which 63% are described as hazardous drinkers(1). This means that 63% of the prison population are potential targets for AA members looking for new people to help.

AA holds meetings in prisons and actively encourages ex-prisoners to attend meetings by accompanying them there. From the UKAA site:

'The main object of liaising with the Probation Services (in England and Wales) and the Criminal Justice Services (in Scotland) is to carry the message that AA exists, and that its members are freely available to help those who have got into trouble under the Criminal Justice System because of their drinking. It is estimated that a significant number of cases coming before the courts involve some element of alcohol abuse, and that many of those appearing in such cases have a history of re-offending sentences. It is hoped that engagement with AA will provide an opportunity to help reduce this. AA welcomes the opportunity for Probation Officers and Criminal Justice Social Workers to consider asking the Fellowship to provide information and help where possible.

AA literature is available for these professionals to inform them of what the Fellowship can and cannot do. It will provide experience to inform the design of Criminal Justice System policies relating to alcohol abuse. AA will co-operate in Probation Officers? and Criminal Justice Social Workers? training. It will give presentations and literature not only to Probation and Criminal Justice Services, but also to magistrates and sheriffs, judges, courts officials, lawyers? groups and the police. The AA ?contact card? giving the Helpline number is made widely available to those in contact with offenders.

Experience has often shown that offenders who come to AA Groups and keep coming back, have often changed the direction and quality of their lives. This in turn can also have a considerable impact upon other offenders and Officers when they subsequently share their experiences with them.'

This does not just include prisoners who have gone to prison for an offence directly related to alcohol, such as drink-driving.

From the AAUK website again: 'At the present time there are approximately, 85,000 prisoners in England and Wales of which 63% are described as hazardous drinkers(1).'

"I have seen many teenagers from Malvern College in AA meetings. They were told, in 'shares' how lucky they were to have found AA so young." How many is "many" and how old is a "teenager"? Again - I personally, having attended many AA meetings, have never encountered a minor (and I would say that, though my personal definition of a "minor" is someone under 16, as that's when you can do most "adult" things legally - except drink, ironically - I've never met any under 18s there either.)

AA does indeed give regular talks in schools. So do lots of organisations. It's a big leap from there to suggesting that AA recruits minors to its membership. School parties regularly go to the Houses of Parliament - do you think the goal is to turn every child into an MP or is it to remove ignorance and misconceptions about how the democratic process works?

"AA holds meetings in prisons and actively encourages ex-prisoners to attend meetings by accompanying them there.2 yes, of course it does. Who has ever denied this? Are you suggesting that people who have done something bad in life, often under the influence of drink and so, arguably, not in their right mind or "not themself", should be denied access to a potential source of help in beating their problem with alcohol and stopping offending?

But what DOESN'T happen is courts telling them to go. In other words, convicts in AA meetings (inside prison or outside) are there because they have voluntarily acknowledged they have a problem with alcohol and are seeking help for it. That's a positive thing, surely - both for them and for society at large?

The fact that AA has had some very bad situations in the US, should still be talked about in the UK. The reason for this is very simple. Both the US and UK groups are under the same umbrella if "AA" and if people do not know what can happen under the umbrella of "AA" there is no way to prevent these problems from spreading all throughout the groups in each country. This again is for safety purposes. If people do not know what can happen in the independently run groups under the umbrella of "AA", then problems can not be prevented from spreading.

The problem of court mandated attendees in AA is the same in both countries. Many times as a plea bargain, people CHOOSE to go to AA to reduce their sentences. The problem with this is that the court systems allow this and the US and UK umbrella of "AA" allow this to help the suffering Alcoholic. Unfortunately many people who CHOOSE this, do it only because they really have to, or end up in jail. This is where the criminal element in AA comes from and it is very hard to tell the criminal element from the benevolent element. As they say Alcoholism is baffling and cunning, how do you tell the safe elements from the unsafe elements?

It could be that people shouldn't be told to trust people with their lives and life styles so openly. In both countries, new joiners of AA are encouraged to get sponsors and then Sponcees. Sometimes this happens extremely quickly within a year or so and since there are no background checks, you could end up with a criminal element Sponsor and the same things that are happening in the US, could very well happen in the UK.

Does anyone have a solution on how to prevent the problems that are happening in the US from happening in the UK? Maybe the US and UK umbrellas should split up into different elements so the problems in the US do not happen in the UK?

"The problem of court mandated attendees in AA is the same in both countries. Many times as a plea bargain, people CHOOSE to go to AA to reduce their sentences." As the UK has no formal equivalent to plea bargaining, you will have to explain in more detail how this works in practice. Having been convicted of a drink driving charge myself, I can confirm that it was on the basis of a suggestion from the court that I first attended AA. However, I did not receive this suggestion until AFTER I had been sentenced - it was part of some standard paperwork (it was also suggested, in a non-privileged way, alongside two NON-AA approaches available locally.)

" In both countries, new joiners of AA are encouraged to get sponsors and then Sponcees." Not in my experience, especially when it comes to getting sponsees. No one has EVER encouraged me to get sponsees, even though I have been continuously sober for over 8 years.

"you could end up with a criminal element Sponsor" - two points on that. Unless the criminal (what does "criminal element" mean? have I walked onto the set of a science fiction film?) is in AA for him or herself - which you are saying that, typically, he/she is not - then he/she won't be around to sponsor anyone. Unless you are saying that the sponsor is remaining purely to take advantage; in which case that has nothing to do with criminality and everything to do with mental health issues.

Second point - so what? If someone is open about a criminal record (and there is no reason not to be in AA) then why should the fact that, while drinking, he/she was a murderer, make him/her a worse sponsor?

Again - people choose their own sponsor on the basis of the sponsor's perceived sobriety. If someone appears dangerously imbalanced then, whether their worst crime is murder or an unpaid library fine, I would not want to be sponsored by them. And vice versa. Not also the standard advice in AA NOT to get a sponsor of the opposite sex.

I still don't understand. When I talk about the criminal element in AA, yes I am talking about murderers, rapists and thieves who use AA as a way to mitigate their sentences. The major verified crimes that have been done by the criminal element in AA has been in the US. This could be because the concept of anonymity and "what is said in the rooms of AA, stays in AA" practice is more heavily followed in the UK and that is why it does not hit the papers in the UK. But you are saying we can't use those verified cases as examples. People are just using those cases as examples to warn people that they could be in danger, this is only common sense.

I am sorry, but I would not want a murderer to be my sponsor whether they were drinking or not when they committed the crime. Murderers, rapists and thieves have a different mind set than a "real alcoholic" that just started drinking too much. First off these people have trained themselves to be deceptive and they won't be honest about their past unless they have to. Is is true that Alcoholism is a progressive disease which sometimes ends up in murder, rape and theft. But what about the person that does these things that didn't do it because of Alcoholism? There are many documented cases of this happening in the US, but you said we can't use them as examples.

I think that it would be prudent if the UK AA and the US AA completely split apart from each other to keep the UK AA pure so that the verified problems in the US don't start happening in the UK. Like they say, if you hang around the barbershop long enough, you'll get a haircut. Would there be any problems with this?

i havent got a sponsor, nor do i sponsor anyone, never asked, never been asked - i would really like to know why i should discount anyone with a criminal record though? - a man i really admire and get great comfort and strength from in my aa group is a 'lifer' out on licence, sober for many years, should i ignore all his words of wisdom? also, what is so hard to understand about UK law? Law courts in the UK DO NOT SEND PEOPLE TO AA!! IT IS NOT ALLOWED!! GED IT?

btw miflaw - i think you are one helluva babe!!

JR Harris

I don't mean to be rude but you sound like someone who knows very little about alcoholism, alcoholics, the attitude to the alcoholic in law or the operation of AA.

Perhaps this isn't the thread for you?

"I am sorry, but I would not want a murderer to be my sponsor whether they were drinking or not when they committed the crime." Entirely your choice.

"Real alcoholic" - you clearly do not have a bloody clue.

MIFLAW - I see you are using the "your not a real alcoholic and haven't been to AA" excuse to discount my ideas. First off, I am very,very,very,very familiar and knowledgeable about AA. Second off, I am not going to prove it to you. I am using Step 5 "Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs."

A true member of the fellowship would never try to discount someones information by saying that they aren't a "Real Alcoholic". I am not going to ask you how long you have been in AA or how many closed meetings you have gone through or what Step you have attained and how many times, because I follow Step 5. Do the AA members you have been associating with follow Step 5?