to consider aa a dangerous cult?

[Kirkers]

I am ready to be attacked by cult members.

I have read 'theorangepapers' online which is very well researched, and 'twelve step horror stories' (also available to read online) and they prove to me (on top of my own experience) that aa does much more harm than good. In every proper, conrolled experiment aa produces worse results than any other treatment, including doing nothing. It is unquestionably a cult(Google, 'is aa a cult'). Yet 93% (I am not sure about that figure, sorry) of treatment centres follow the same model. That would be the £10 billion treatment industry.

I hope this isn't too off topic for mumsnet. They do involved children too. It is awful.

I first came to mumsnet following the Julie/Jake Myerson thread. The detective work that went on was phenonmenal. Is there anyone out there breastfeeding or too pregnant to move who could look into the orange papers and tell me I'm not Erin bigchest Eronovich.

This is an absolutely genuine request for feedback from people who are prepared to consider the actual black and white evidence of this extraordinarily powerful organisation.

Thanks.

Arse, would you show this to dh and see what he thinks. That would be a useful perspective. Ask him whether he was told that only aa could save him and if he didn't join for the rest of his life, he would die. And he didn't. Ask him!

Yep, just scanned them.

Sounds like a load of twaddle to me. I find this thread bizarre.

The 12 step programme isn't enforced. You could go to AA forever without taking part in it. Same for al-anon. I've never been and no-one has ever suggested that I do.

The religious overtones aren't a surprise as the foundations of AA are in a christian organisation that sought to help alcoholics. They looked after a doctor who amended their techniques and set-up a ward for alcoholics in his own hospital. Eventually the AA broke away from the Oxford Group.

The AA literature was written years ago, and is definitely "of its time" and reads strangely.

But I can assure you that DH is not brainwashed, does not try and recruit others and I am not concerned about it. Alcoholics do not need much of an excuse to carry on drinking and avoid giving-up, so those who have met people who claim that the AA is all a bit weird and scary probably fall into that camp.

DH has not surrendered to any particular higher power. He just doesn't drink anymore. And really a life without alcohol is far better than a life with it. Honestly, they do all sit around drinking tea.

This thread is amused me. Off to ring DH at work now to tell him that he is a cult-member.

No money is involved in AA. Maybe 20p or so for tea and biscuits.

DH is some sort of regional rep and goes to organisational meetings where they talk bureaucracy. He hasn't met any strange charsamatic types looking to buy his soul.

He has met lots of atheist members. But he has met some who have become Buddists and Quakers, so it is hardly a successful cult in converting people to christianity!

In America it is different in that courts often order people to attend meetings instead of jail (what would you do?). However the Supreme Court has ruled 7+ times that this is unconstitutional because of the religious aspect so this may stop.

In the orange papers there is a section with loads of categories of cult characteristic which the author goes through painstakingly and giving aa a score out of 10. It is absolutely riveting.

Look under 'The Cult Test'.

Poshsinglemum, people who give up smoking can be evangelical and disapproving about others lighting up too. They don't need anyone standing behind them telling them it's bad.

Kirkers, I will email him the link at work and get him to post a reply if he can access the forum.

Kirkers, I'm interested to know your motivation for starting this thread?

I have a feeling that there is something wrong. I know that little money changes hands at meetings but nearly all treatment centres here and the US are based on something that has no proof at all. My dp went to alanon and he is still (a year on) as brainwashed as ever. He declares he is powerless over alcohol but he has always been a health nut who never smokes, drinks anyway. That is brainwashing.

Also, AA tell people, who are almost always in a vulnerable state to have gone there at all, that if they have even one drink they will not be able to stop and they will die. I think that is why so many aa members die of bingeing. If you think you are powerless and going to die, what is the point of stopping? It is a Big Fat Dangerous Lie and I don't understand how they get away with it.

Please just read the cult test section of the Orange papers...

I haven't read any of the papers but it does seem to be all in their own literature. Swapping one addiction for another. My mate is terrified of moving on with her life and takes her five year old to meetings four nights a week which start at eight even in the winter

But if not drinking is the goal it works for a lot of people so I don't know... will be interested to read this thread as it develops.

I think the OP should say "orangepapers.com" a few more times.

I have no experience at all of aa. But just scanning the orange papers thingy, it makes claims which it cannot not back up. For instance, saying that many of the judiciary, therapists and parole officers are secret members. Pardon? How can you possibly know that?

AA may well be a cult (I don't know enough about it), but equally, this criticism sounds paranoid and conspiracy theorist, so I don't trust it.

One quite interesting take on this is James Frey's "A million litte pieces". I know there is a lot of controversey over the fact that the account was somewhat embellished but I believe the basic facts of how he overcame his addiction are true (he just made up some of the subplots to make it a bit more of a page turner).

Anyway......... he rejected the 12 steps on the basis that he felt he could only overcome his addiction but realising that he did have power over whether to drink or not and that it was his responsibility not to- i.e. there was no point in blaming anyone else- the buck stopped with him.

Apparently it worked.

That said, I think there are differences between UK and US AA, and tbh I think alcohol is much more culturally acceptable in the UK which makes the slant different to start with. I do have friends who have tried AA. One stuck with it. Two didn't. The two that didnt are still drinking although I wouldnt necessarily say they are alcoholics.

The membership claims are ridiculous because no membership records are kept.

What a load of old Twoddle...

The only money involved is from the people who attend the meetings that a: can afford to, b: want to. Its a token gesture to cover the tea, biscuits, sometimes cake and room hire. Its only £1.

Nobody forces you to follow any particular religious path and generally "members" sit around drinking copious amounts of tea talking about their experiences before and after drinking.

The 12 steps are used as a guide to living as most alcoholics had a pretty un-organised and shitty life whilst drinking, becoming more deluded and withdrawn as time goes on. They need some help in getting back to normality (whatever that is)

Rant over...

This is all very odd.

OP I don't know you from Adam. Your back story may or may not be genuine. But your thread title and your OP are shrill and paranoid in tone and have actually put me off reading the literature you want us to read. Just something to think about.

Plus, saying "It is unquestionably a cult" and putting as your reference for this statement "Google: is AA a cult" is about as far away from a research standard that any sane person would accept as a basis for an argument as you can get.

What do you want from this? Are you planning to take some action? Or do you just have some reason for wanting more people to click on the orange papers?

This thread is very very odd. Ask yourself this - would you rather a close friend/family member were dead or close to dying as a result of alcohol abuse, with all the effects that the abuse has on people around them, or that they were a member of a cult, with all the evangelising that goes with it? I don't see AA as a cult, but even if it were, I know which one I would choose.

Very very strange POV, OP

Did you read the post that said that her dh had a penny dropping moment when he read the orange papers. I think it might help some other folks when the penny drops. I keep mentioning it because it is necessary reading on this subject.

I expect to be criticised by members of aa. I wouldn't expect anything else.

I also think it is very generous of all these people to put their research on the internet, free. I don't know who wrote it, I assume it is an American or a group of Americans with experience of aa.

Telling a vulnerable person that they are completely powerless is not right.

What a load of crap.

It is not a cult. There is no conspiracy of silence - AA keep it confidential because of the stigma of addiction.

The 'higher power' thing is a 'god of your own understanding' ie. whatever you want, whether that be your own ideas about the universe or collective consciousness or whether it's your cat. It's the idea that it is something outside and within your self - that you are not alone. It may be your own higher consciousness or the part of you that only wants the best for you - ie. the non-suicidal part.

They take no money. There is no vested interest for anybody.

The actual steps lead people through taking responsibility, working on the harm they have done to themselves (and others), encourage intimacy and healthy relationships with other people.

The orange papers is most importantly, poorly researched - only a numpty would think those samples are large enough.

What a ludicrous post - is it your first?

"I expect to be criticised by members of aa. I wouldn't expect anything else."

I'm not a member of the AA thankyouverymuch.

Fuck me, how presumptious of you.

Can we get un update on whether your DP is still attending al-anon?

Can we have a sharing of our experiences and reactions to the three online books I have mentioned?

I would be quite happy to hear which bits of the orange papers are wrong, or which bits of 12 steps horror stories are not disturbing.

'It scares me too. It really does scare me the way its members are so glazed over and mystical. It is brainwashing.'

You are, surely, having a laugh. Have you ever actually been to a meeting, either of AA or AlAnon?

dp stopped going a year ago, thanks, so that is something. I have done so much reading round this subject that I feel a need to subject my own findings with y'all.

Laurie, is it badly researched? I dont know who wrote it and when I first saw it I was sure it was a nutter with an axe to grind. But, having read most, I am very impressed with the research and, as I read it, I cross checked quite a bit and could find anything that didn't check out.

Yes, totally agreed to the person who said that to Google 'is aa a cult?' is completely squewed; it's just probably the easiest way to reach the relevant literature. If you look at general anticult websites, which include the Children of God, etc, they tend to have a section on aa. I read a lot about cults in general as well as this in particular.

BTW, (and not relevant) I know someone (in Italy) who gave the family fortune to the Children of God. He eventually left. That tale is miles more interesting than this but I would like to plug into the mumsnet brain that seemed to solve the Julie Myerson/guardian column mystery. I'm happy to be criticised but it would help if we all had access to the same information.