To think that health professionals should not call me MUM

[Reallytired]

DD had her jabs today and the nurse kept on calling me "Mum" even though I said to her that I did not want her to call me "Mum". I told her that it was a biological impossiblity that I was her mother.

I have two children and I am happy for me to call me Mum, but I do have a proper name and I think health professionals should use it.

aitch, you most certainly misrepresented what I said as you implied that I thought spending any money on communication skills was a shocking waste of money. That is not what I said. I have already clarified (if you did genuinely misunderstand), that I was referring to one specific document produced by one specific trust.
This thread has been about specifically using the word 'mum' when addressing a child's mother (see title). It has not been about generally poor communication skills of all HCPs. A lot of posters have said that they have had overall very positive experiences in the NHS with most clinicians.
I'm afraid (HB too) that I (personally) still do not find being called 'mum' a big issue. I have also been a mum bringing my children in for immunisations, etc and have been referred to as mum. I DID NOT find it irritating. I know the nurse meant to be pleasant. Obviously, you and others have had entirely different experiences and did find it very irritating. Your children were ill and in hospital more and the staff should have taken the trouble to find out your names and to be particularly sensitive to your feelings. I think that these circumstances are different to my own. That is what I have already said. But you disagree with this and feel that it should never happen, even if a small percentage of mums dislike it, whatever their cicumstances. You have mentioned rooting it out as if it is some sort of canker. You (aitch) have talked of NHS professionals being institutionalised and defensive and unwilling to change. You have mentioned power grabbing in an NHS context.
Clearly, I, as one clinician out of thousands and thousands can examine my on practice. Obviously this is all that I (personally) can do to change things. You really don't need to point that out to me! But, I am younger and more open minded than most and this is a thread on mumsnet read by a tiny handful of clinicians! What of the others who are doing it and are completely unaware it causes offence because they haven't been on mumsnet reading this v long thread? What of the ones who laughed at the meeting when another clinician (on this thread) brought it up at their meeting? These are the ones who are going to be harder to change. These are the very ones who 'need' managers to produce documents of the type shown in order to change. They will need it done repetitively over years to produce a significant change. There are a lot of managers like this in the NHS and some of them or at least the sheer number of them are (in my opinion) a waste of money in a cash strapped NHS. I also see taxpayer's money being squandered in other ways and it makes me v angry (but that is for another thread).

The only way that I can see this thread on mumsnet producing any palpable change at all (at no cost to the NHS) is if someone on here is a journalist who can ensure that sections from it are published in several national newspapers! Otherwise, it is down to changes brought about at managerial level which will cost money and take time.
Snapple, I note the examples you have suggested but I think you are simplifying the issue (see above)!

Looby but I am finding some of the arguments on this thread weak and exasperating

I fail to see how hard it could really be - and that common courtesy needs to cost a lot of money - or a one page form needs to cost a lot of money?

Ofcourse resistance to change will occur if incorrect addressing of people is a widespread practice. It is disappointing, but hardly unsurprising after reading this thread that SOME clinicians laugh when this issue is brought up at a meeting. Will these same clinicians still be laughing when some critical incidents such as those from Chegirl and Campion are brought up - and if so then I think I would be pleased to know about it as I would question their basic competence and attitude to patients and I would never want to be one of their patients.

You can name each and every obstacle and excuse up for change and I am sure others can name a solution.

No one ever said change was easy - but the world is littered with examples (Rosa Parks on the bus) where people make a change and change is effected.

I also don't see what age has to do with open minds, but ageism is a whole other thread

Can't resist posting again despite the sensible thing being to ignore the thread. Have actually been thinking about my practice & what usually happens is I introduce myself as 'forename surname, your anaesthetic doctor', ask 'are you mum?', the mother usually says 'yes I'm (name by which they want to be addressed)' & then I use their name if I need to address them again. This allows me to establish their relationship to the child for consent purposes & gives them the opportunity to introduce themselves should they wish. Often I do not need to address them by anything if they choose not to tell me their name because it is a conversation between us so it is obvious that I am talking to them. So, perhaps I am a good little HCP after all!

BUT would I be unreasonable if I got irritated that after all that they addressed me as 'nurse'?!!!! (Obviously would be far too hierarchical to be irritated by that & actually it's fine because after all I'm female & have no business being a doctor & they are anxious, but couldn't resist posting as this happens all the time)

Now ready to be accused of power grabbing because I want to be called either by my name (first name fine) or my correct title, both of which are on my name badge, unlike the parents name hidden in the notes.....running away to hide

i still don't understand why it is so difficult to modify

'mum, please hold x's leg for his jab'

to

'please hold x's leg for his jab'.

when seeing hcp on my own behalf, they don't use my name repeatedly; once when calling me in, perhaps, and thereafter usually addressing me as you, e.g 'have you had these symptoms long'

i don't buy it then that when seeing an hcp with my children they need to repeatedly call me mum as though it were my name.

maybe the next time i am mummed i should respond in kindby calling the hcp 'daughter' or 'son' - they are someone's child after all so how can it possibly be offensive/inappropraite

ofgs, looby. that document was a SHOCKING waste of money, but others wouldn't be? i genuinely don't understand. [puzzled] i also don't understand why you're taking this all so personally and huffily when you actually AGREE with the central point. except that you think that we're unrepresentative and complaining, i suppose, so maybe that's why you're so affronted?

pinkgerbera, i think that sounds fine, except wrt 'are you mum?' what about 'are you x's mum?' and i would be mightily offended if patients assumed i was a nurse just because i was a female, but then it also seems like stanasauras didn't like being addressed as nurse and she is a nurse. it's clearly a minefield on both side, i think that's why i like first name terms so much, albeit only when invited. i do like the french for that, on se tutoyer? so civilised.

I haven't gotten involved on this thread although I was on the previous similar one. I have had a lot of hospital visits with DS2, we average one appt a week with numerous admissions and I'm afraid to say it does irritate me.

When DS2 is admitted for a period of time and I see the same faces day in day out, I don't think it is too much for them to either call me by my name, (which is written on his admission sheet on the board at the end of his bed) or not call me anything at all.

To call me 'DS2's' mum is of course totally fine.

In situations of great emergency then obviously call me whatever, but you know having been in that situation on more than one occassion, the doctor that makes good eye contact with me and calls me by my name is far more reassuring and calming.

Actually thinking about this more it is DS2's physio that does this more than most and she should know us by now.

lol at chibi's excellent and to the point post in amongst all this to-and-fro.

yeah, WHY is it so difficult to modify that one wee word? lol. is this what's called silo thinking, where people get so wrapped up in their own wee bits of the world that they forget that the rest of us manage to communicate with each other using 'you'?

newsagent, is my copy of grazia magazine in yet?

butcher, may i have half a kilo of mince, please?

tax inspector, how much money do i owe you?

weird about the physio, isn't it? especially as she does know you... i really just think it's a bit of jargon that no-one's thought about.

I'm sure that she doesn't think anything of it, and would possibly be shocked if she knew how often I am inwardly rolling my eyes when she says it.

Still she's coming this afternoon and I think I will say 'please, call me draughts'.

marking my place

snapple- I am sorry if you misunderstood me about older people being less open minded. I said that I was younger AND more open minded, ie two separate things (not younger and therefore more open minded). I mentioned my being younger than some HCPS because, in my experience, younger people find it easier to change their habits because they are less ingrained. Even if the will is there, habits that have existed for a long time are usually more difficult to change. I think that the elderly deserve to be treated with extra respect being of their age, experience and vulnerability and also because they do tend (generalisation) to be more formal.
I am sorry that you see the explanations people have tried to give as excuses. They were merely attempts to explain why these things are happening rather than to justify them. We (HCPS) see the inner workings of the NHS and have worked with thousands of NHS colleagues so are in a good position to understand WHY these things happen. It does not follow that they are right or that they should be justified. It doesen't even mean that these are good reasons!
Change can and should be effected but this type of thing is pretty unlikely to hit the headlines in the way that Rosa Park's actions did. (Lots of covert racism exists in the NHS to btw, as in the policeforce too).
aitch, I don't know if I object to other documents without seeing them (FFS, OMG, shocked face, evading the issue I hear you cry). I object to the government (and managers) prioritising (we have to prioritise) patient feedback surveys concerning whether or not they were addressed by the correct title and all the work and costs it involves and all the extra people that are being employed to design this (v simple) survey and others like it in every trust over high quality clinical care. I really object that NICE have to way up 'cost effectiveness' of chemotherapy agents and decide whether it is worth treating a patient depending on their age and how much they can contribute to the economy, etc, etc. Does that explain things more clearly?
If I seem huffy, it is only in response to your posts in particular because of the FFS, OMG, OFGS, thick, power grabbing comments. Even one of these things can be enough to offend people. Just because you find it acceptable, it does not follow that I do or that I am being oversensitive, just as I am not offended by being called 'mum' but you obviously are and I would be wrong to belittle you for feeling that way!! Please don't say something silly like I have never been bullied in my life or you pay my salary! I am not 'huffy' with anyone else on this thread because they have not used these words and have written far more balanced posts. Shall we just agree to drop it??
Oh, and if you really do want my opinion on how change is better effected, I would say that it should be done during training at medical school/ nursing college, etc. It should be emphasised from the start of training. As far as I'm aware, far more importance is being placed on it nowadays at medical schools. I hope that reassures some of you!!

why would you be offended to be assumed to be a nurse just because you are female? Is nursing so bad? I am a well educated woman who chose nursing as a career. I am not a put upon, sad little woman who does only what she is told.

I suspect this is the same reason the being refered to as mum is so bloody annoying, because unfortunately being refered to as mum puts you in the horrible position of just being a woman who cares for her children with no recognition of your skills, talents or life experience.

yes, plus3 i did wonder if i'd left that a bit unclear there. i would be cross because it would be a sexist assumption that women are nurses rather than doctors, that's all. not because i don't value nurses.

looby, i don't think i've said FFS or OMG on this thread, actually. but really, don't let that get in the way of your ridiculous characterisation of my posts.

aitch, I must confess that I'm a little disappointed by your response. I had hoped for a little more self reflection. I think you did say FFS but anyway that is unimportant. You have completely missed the point! Any one of those swear words or phrases or comments like "I pay your salary' is enough to offend. It dosen't actually matter how many there were!
You really shouldn't suggest that I am being ridiculous just because I dislike some of your language and the tone of your posts. It is exactly what this post is about- treating people (specifically mums) with respect and addressing them in a way in which THEY find appropriate. This is exactly why I accused you of having a chip earlier on because you (only you) just go on and on with your own opinion but refuse to listen, accept to or try to understand anyone else's. I think lockets got fed up with you earlier on in the thread for doing this to her too! I am happy to accept that other posters don't agree with me altogether because they have all written in a polite a and balanced way and I respect them for that.

Loving the word 'mummed' chibi lol!

Just caught up with this thread and I'm pleased to see that the general feeling has changed as to WHY some HCPs 'mum' parents.

At the beginning people appeared to be saying it was always a power grab, now the general consensus is that it is habit or unawareness of causing offence.

And NO I'm not saying this justifies it - but the reason HCPs on this thread got all defensive/argumentative was the implication from 'power grab' that everyone that did it was an ego-maniac.

(Just realised I'm an HCP defending the defensiveness!!)

i don't think that it has changed, mrsmick, i think it's been constant. behavioural psychologists would say that it has its roots in a power grab, and once these things take hold then it's lazy jargon. the two are not mutually exclusive. i don't think anyone has said ego maniac, have they? the hcps might have, in order to twist and inflate, but i don't think that's ever been the actual charge.

and looby, i'm disappointed in you too. i think most of what you say, in fact, you should direct to yourself tbh. your tone has been extraordinarily pompous and condescending throughout, and you have sought to 'misunderstand' 90% of what i've said. if you genuinely cannot see that, well, then, i fear for your patients, who must have a terrible time trying to address an issue that you don't want them to.

while your persistent attacks on me do allow you to ignore the many, many others on this thread who also dislike being called mum by people other than our children, the fact remains i do pay your wages, we unrepresentative complainers do pay your wages, you can't escape that, and the next time you find yourself saying to a taxpayer, as you did earlier 'who are you to tell me what to do?', i suggest you remember that fact.

oh, and "don't let that get in the way of your ridiculous characterisation" is not the same as saying 'you are ridiculous'. your characterisation of me is ridiculous, based as it is on misunderstanding, misrepresentation and in some cases, simple untruths.

i think you're often taking offence at things i simply haven't written here, that might be the problem. dare i ask, is english your first language?

Mrsmick, I do think that it is a habit and an unawareness of causing offence, but I also think it is about power in the NHS.

I do not think it is about a deliberate attempt on the part of the individual HCP to massage their own ego and perform a power grab!

I don't think their are problems across the entire culture of the NHS. My local GPs, midwives, health visitors and practice nurses are great. But problems of making vulnerable people (ill people and their families) feel even more vulnerable can arise in some individual institutions, such as an individual hospital or an individual ward.

There are always going to be problems with power in any situation where people are interacting with other people who are in a situation of vulnerability. Many parts of the NHS are really good at making me people feel less vulnerable.

yes, fairladyrantalot was very interesting on this, milly, she made it clear that in her experience these things depended on how the culture on a ward etc was managed.

Another unintelligent, bullying post from you aitch.
While I have reflected on this 'mum' issue in my own practice, have understood that it could be seen as patronising (though unlikely to be deliberately so), said that I will discuss it with colleagues in the future, have thought about some of the v personal and sad stories told here, etc, etc you have been utterly unreflective about how you may come across to others even though several people (not just HCPs) have remarked upon it eg lockets
You embarrass yourself with remarks about you and everyone else on this thread paying my wages and about your concerns for my patients. It is a very base thing to say and actually inaccurate too as it happens.
It really is a waste of time trying to discuss anything with you as you are clearly always 100% in the right. How stupid of me not to have left this thread before!

I'm not sure if anyone said 'ego-maniac'. I was careful in my post to say that this could be the implication from 'power grab' rather than the actual word used.

I'm not denying that hierarchy is a problem in the NHS, and I'm not saying asserting power is NEVER the reason for mumming. Just that its an unlikely cause (although admittedly this is only from my humble observations).

The only real evidence we've got is from plus3 who took it to a meeting. Some dismissed it and but 'most' were horrified to have caused offence.

i've had just about enough of this, actually, looby. your persistent use of the word 'bullying' with reference to myself is in itself bullying and transparently an attempt to hijack the discussion.

are you being bullied? am i bullying you? how so, exactly? by responding to your posts in a tone not dissimilar to the one you are using to me?

bollocks to bullying, i think we're pretty evenly matched here, and by playing the victim (of WHAT, by god?) you are indeed embarrassing yourself.

how is 'thick' so different from 'unintelligent', by the way? hoist on your own pompous petard there, i think.

i've had just about enough of this, actually, looby. your persistent use of the word 'bullying' with reference to myself is in itself bullying and transparently an attempt to hijack the discussion.

are you being bullied? am i bullying you? how so, exactly? by responding to your posts in a tone not dissimilar to the one you are using to me?

bollocks to bullying, i think we're pretty evenly matched here, and by playing the victim (of WHAT, by god?) you are indeed embarrassing yourself.

how is 'thick' so different from 'unintelligent', by the way? hoist on your own pompous petard there, i think.

that's true, mrsmick, you did, but i don't think that being an ego maniac is the only explanation of a power grab. imo it'd be quite the opposite.

like i say i've not had the problem with docs so much, by and large i'd be on first name terms with docs along the lines of the introduction that most of you have said you do. Of course chegirl and riven haven't found that, mind you.

the peopel who do it ime are midwives and hvs and receptionists etc, people who deal a lot with women with babies and kids. i'd propose that any historical power grab, or perhaps more accurately a desire to underline status might come more from an insecurity rather than egomania.

however, unless it's stopped (and that might mean spending money on a policy doc, i suppose, but it could also start at a micro-cosmic level in a meeting of one of the hcps in this thread) it will just bumble along as a habit. somebody starts using it, a trainee nurse hears it and uses it, nervous young docs come in, think 'oh that's how we address mothers' and do it, etc etc etc and soon it's the standard address and no-one's actually thought about the impact of the language on the patient.

but i suppose if 'mum' can spread like wildfire without anyone much thinking about it, i don't see why it's so massively unlikely that stopping it would be so hard either. it's just good modelling at the end of the day, and has to start somewhere. and call me naive (in fact i think i have been... ) but afaic there's no reason why it shouldn't start with a few hcps bringing it up in meetings cos of a thread that they saw on the internet. plus3's is a great example already.