to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

Tax rates around the world

Actually, I don't think that anyone who gets through that amount of cannabis a day would be able to play a wii all day.

OP - mind your own business and be accurate.

When I was on benefits, I treated myself to nail extensions etc, because its bloody miserable being on benefits and thats what I blew my spare money on. I treated ds as well, why shouldn't I? The bills were paid and there was money left.

As for FF, don't even go there!

i tell you what i don't get OP, why you don't just come clean and say 'i'm bloody fantastic and great with money and better than everyone else so why are people with less money than me having more fun IT'S NOT FAIR they should be more miserable than me but they're not it's me that's unhappy and unfulfilled and bitter'
cos that's what you mean isn't it?

i think your post is a cry for help.

i'd like to help but i've left the car running outside and all the pit bulls are in there and the do like to snatch the bottles out of the babies' hands when i'm not around. i just popped in to change - i think some people at the fun filled alcohol fueled all day bash we're off to have seen this outfit before and that won't do will it? anyway must dash... hope you feel better soon.

I don't entirely understand the aggression directed towards nybom/husband.

As an immigrant myself to this country who came here only with my skills and no intention of living off the state (as there are minimal social welfare benefits in mine), it is a culture shock to realise that the UK benefit system has been abused by a not insignificant minority, it seems.

I do apologise to nybomhusband for bringing up comparison between different social security systems as that seems to have brought even more ire on his head.

In any case, nybomhusband has already explained this thread is not about benefits. Indeed, in her less elegantly phrased OP, nybom says "several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions ...".

So I read his/her primary frustration is at people who can and should be saving more or spending their money more wisely (though I don't agree with nybom's examples of financial prudence insofar as they relate to small luxuries). I did not read it primarily as an attack on people who claim benefits.

However, bringing in benefits probably doomed this thread to the direction it took since it appears there is very little hope of a civilised discussion on mn once that dimension is brought in. Unless lots of disclaimers and exceptions qualifying every single sentence putting forth this point of view is included - which I am sure the OP has learnt by now.

It is a fact that some people are financially feckless and, whether or not these people are on benefits (and many of them are not and many people on benefits are not financial feckless), the lifestyle can be incomprehensible to people on the outside looking in.

'It is a fact that some people are financially feckless and, whether or not these people are on benefits (and many of them are not and many people on benefits are not financial feckless), the lifestyle can be incomprehensible to people on the outside looking in.'

Yet the OP specifically mentions people on benefits twice. And characterise 'the poor' as 'these people'.

Then launches into a monologue about how she does things by comparison.

Many things are incomprehensible to people on the outside looking in.

But most, out of common courtesy, either keep their mouths shut because it's none of their business or ask, politely, rather than scolding and generalising.

Riven He should be get help for going to the universities, the universities have a hardship fund and if he contacts them directly and explains that it's hard to find the train fare they should be able to help.

PS, judgeing by OP's list I'm poorer than poor. Does this make me uber-scum or non-existent?

expat, I am sure you must be right. As this thread is in AIBU, I presume the overwhelming response is YABU mostly in relation to some of the examples given, the critical reference to benefit claimants and the self-congratulatory tone of her lifestyle.

But the gist of the sentence you quoted from my post, which I believe triggered the OP, is uncontroversial.

The subject can be discussed very easily in RL without attracting the vitriol as you see on mn. Not that I bring this subject up but the implied attitudes of my middle class neighbours towards the single mother living in social housing on my road (the house was purchased by the council) leads me to believe I would have no problems getting resonance to a view such as the OP's. Not that it is a worthy thing.

The moral to the OP is to tone right down on mn. I have learnt a lot about alternative lifestyles by being on here. It is almost a parallel universe where you are NOT 'amongst friends' and have to be incredibly inclusive of every single lifestyle, choice and circumstance under the sun. That is my tip to the OP.

Riven, the use of the word 'poor' was not a wise choice. Perhaps the OP/husband do not have English as their first language and don't appreciate the subtle connotations that come with that word.

However, if the OP was talking about people describing themselves as 'poor' despite persistent feckless behaviour, then that would be appropriate.

Being on benefits myself I agree with the essence of the OP, just purely because I am grateful for the help I receive. If you are receiving funding to live and support your family from other people, isn't it fair that you don't use the money irresponsibly? If you have earned the money then it's really up to you.

Or am I just odd?

How much of it is odd though?

I don't smoke so tend to steeraway from thatas a debate as am completely lacking in wider viewpoint

I drink- but we're talking one beerat home some weeks, a bottle of wine on a birthday sort of level

ff babies- only works in a society where all can bf (and as my 16 month old ds4 is latchedatm I bear no bias LOL). formula isalso free to those on benefits (I think that should be balanced by extra fruit and veg tokens for bf mums but it still isnt a personal use of benefitamounts)

lights on- silly whatever

beaity products- i have loads! all gifts.

artificial nailsetc- can bequite cheap if you know someone (dont have them myself but trained in doing them)

kids parties- Personally dont get why giving kids nice things is bad.

credit cards- most peoplw on benefits cant get them. usually a maxed out card means that you were recently working which throws in a whole lot ofstuff- redundancy, illness, has been paying taxes etc

BS it's not actually hard tophrase it fine-

I feel that people who actively select a lifestyle on benefits, despite good health, accesto childcare and both a decent education and availability of employment, are a drain on society

Because once all those people have nbeen extracted it's hard to say no. Don't know many of them,mind (by decent education don't mean a degree- just ability to complete applications and fulfil a role)

Riven - I think it's well worth a shot - in this day and age it would be very bad publicity for them to refuse an interview to a "poor" boy!

Pre-cut fruit? Only if it's tinned! As for leaving the car engine running - durrr... what else are you supposed to do when you've left it double-yellows with the hazard lights on when you're nipping in to buy a scratchcard?

hijack alert! - Riven - do phone up the admissions departments of the universities, or find out who the admissions tutor is in the particular department to which your DS is applying (phone the departmental secretary to find this out if you can't see the info. online). Explain your son's situation. They may be able to offer financial assistance, or they may suggest an alternative to interview (e.g. additional written work submitted; a telephone interview). I'm always heavily involved each year in the admissions process in my own university, and we always have applicants who, for one reason or another (e.g. foreign students), can't attend interview. We try to find fair ways to deal with this problem. But we can't deal with it if we don't know about it! I hope you find a solution.

Back to the topic. I'm so glad that this thread has nearly reached 1000 posts and can die a death.

The particular nettle which some people are afraid to grasp, I suppose, is that, yes, the welfare costs which the UK pays each year are enormous, and rising: £94 billion (not including pensions) in the last year. That works out as an average (a fairly meaningless calculation, I admit) of c.£3500 per working person (working population earlier this year = 28 million). Undoubtedly, were the welfare bill lower (that is, were all the "false" or "feckless" claimants weeded out - even assuming they actually make up a significant proportion, which I doubt), more money could either be ploughed into other services (the NHS, education, etc.), redistributed amongst "genuine" claimants, or people's tax bills could be lower (ha, dream on).

The thing is, rather than see this massive figure as a criticism of the apparent hordes of benefits scroungers , perhaps we should ask ourselves why so many people in a first-world country like the UK need so much support. That, to me, is the more pressing question. Not whether some people on benefits choose to spend some of their money on things which others might not. I'm not angry at a minority of people who take advantage of a system; I'm embarrassed that the system needs to exist at all.

If I smoked cigarettes, took drugs, and drank regularly I would have def FF my babes. Also, me thinks I would have a greater need for the cut fruit and air freshener. In fact, come to think of it, addictions could explain several of these behaviors.

'a first-world country like the UK need so much support. That, to me, is the more pressing question. Not whether some people on benefits choose to spend some of their money on things which others might not. I'm not angry at a minority of people who take advantage of a system; I'm embarrassed that the system '

Theren are lots of things that can be done, I can only give examples for carers as thats the world I am in, but its not ahrd- allow them the funding to retrain for jobs theyc an do around their commitmrents (many have degrees and are barred from accessing free tarining- yet the Government would get more tax from me as a TA than me sitting at home wishing i could be a teacher)

make the provision of childcare for sn kids (and not just those in SNU's- anyone with a statement, Sn kids in MS are often forgotten) an obligation. How to pay for it? Well from the taxes paid by carers in work and lack pof payments of CA, obviously.

give people the means to change thir lives. It won't manage for all certainly but it would do for many. There are a great deal of disabled, redundant,carers who want to work but cannot at the moment.

naturally, right now I acknowledge it'snot so simple: no jobs, poor economy. but the sense then is to use this time to rpromote training etc so that when the economy does expand there is a group of well trained people ready and able to take on positions.

Eeeuuurgggh tuboflard have you ever smelled those air fresheners?We bought one once- grotesque! Never again.

Riv, at this moment i tnhink your last lines asnwers some of your questions LOL

I wonder if right now there is a case for extending JSA for those who have paid say 2 years stamp to a year? Gives people enough room to manoevre in the current climate, yet also allows for those who ahve been willing to work and just fallen through a gap atm to be separated down. Dh was on JSA for 6 months many years ago, and went for almost 200 interviews (shy man- interviews are his idea of Hell) and was damned fed up when after 6 months of trying he was put on IS and treated as a PITA by the job centre 9fortuantely one job he'd been promised right after his last one collapsed came through shortly after).

And LOL to the shift wrokers thing Dh and my BIL used to get mightily sick of being called names by oldaldies when they were in town the day after a night shift.

seems the same,for over 25's anyway, but the claimants are handled differently by the DSS people- JSA is seen by many as a 'desreved' benefit with less stigma,which I think is important in financial times of crisis, as a decent self image is important in getting back to work