to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

it's not so much a cut income - it's just a massive increase in expenses (rent, council tax, lose the free prescriptions, the free school meals, etc etc).

As FAQ posted, yes, most of the time, much or all of Housing/Council tax benefit ceases, even at min wage level.

And, in many PCTs and council, provisions such as free school dinners and prescriptions, making it worth more to remain on benefits.

Thus, as a working poor, I for one hold NO ire towards those who remain on them.

I have other things to worry about, tbh.

the problem is..once you start work you lose your housing benefit and that is one the most important things required...more help with housing is needed..no one whats to feel insecure about their home..most of the concerns people have before starting work are to do with housing..

Whats the top limit for WTC??

'Thus, as a working poor, I for one hold NO ire towards those who remain on them.

I have other things to worry about, tbh.'

exactly expat

and I tell you sitting on the other side of the fence from expat that the housing issue is the very one which is currently leaving us stuck on this side.........."hopefully" (said with a little sarcasm) we'll be on the side of it soon.......but we're not holding our breath.

about £15,000/pa, K99. Gross.

For a family.

And keep in mind, too, that someone on the £15000 will pay both tax and NI.

Their take home earnings, therefore, before tax credits, will skate close or even below the poverty line.

FAQ, thanks for clarifying about income cut and increase in expenses.

In this way, the way the benefits system as a whole works seems to conspire to keep people on benefits unless they earn enough to break the entry barrier (to make it economic to work as against benefits/housing and other privileges), which I can imagine not many people would qualify since they would not have the qualifications or experience.

So benefits becomes a trap for the bad luck brigade as well as an enabler of the lifestyle of an irresponsible few. That is not right.

Clemette

The total contribution in the UK is roughly 20% - for employer and employee together: 11.8% from the employer and 11.8% from the employee to the upper earnings threshold (and 1% thereafter) + a couple of exemptions.

Regards

11% from two different sources doesn't make 20% (or even 22%) in total though. It simply means that contributions are matched.

Pedantics aside - in your country do individuals pay 20% for their security BEFORE they pay tax? What is the tax rate?

social security

expat
I am not entirely sure why you got the idea that I was unhappy with how things are here.

My wife has raised the issue of misappropriation of funds towards luxury goods and not necessities for children - at least this is what it boils down to for me. She has gone completely wrong about the way she did this and this is why I stepped in and gave a few examples of how I see the issue (see my first message). She wasn't discussing the benefits system as such at all. Sorry if you got that impression.

And although she didn't make that very clear there are a few people here who understodd what she was trying to say.

With regards to naturalisation: We are both EU citizens and therefore can work and live here without any formalities. But yes - I know that the rules are changing.

Furthermore I stictly refuse to accept that any comments I made are in any shape or form racist. How on earth can a question of why people spend money on alcohol and cigarettes INSTEAD of buying good food for their children be interpreted as racist??? I really don't know.
I am a guest in the country - and well aware of it - and behave as such - even if you think differently.

With regards to Child Benefit: I refer to my first message where I clearly state that we are claiming Child Benefit - my wife got that mixed up. So what are you on about?

I thought EU citizens could get CB?

clemette
20% is an approximation as for example the employees contribution reduces to 1% above the upper earnings threshold, which brings 11.8 + 11.8 = 23.6% eventally down to 20%.

In my home country as from 1 July 2009:
20.475% payable by the employer and 19.325% payable by the employee. Again there are earnings thresholds, so the average may be about 36%. Still alot!

Income tax: Starting at 14% from EUR 8,000 annual income to 45% at EUR 250,000 on a sliding scale.

Regards

Oh, really, you're happy with how things are here?

Then why did your wife statt this thread at all? And furthermore, why didn't she engage in the discussion she began?

And finally, why are YOU here discussing and not her?

And yes, EU nationals can claim CB and whatever the hell else they are entitled to after 12 months.

If people don't abuse the system there they way they do here, why are you here grousing about it and not there?

If you are an EU national, why not reveal which country so we can here from other MNers how the system works there, because this board is fairly well-represented as far as the EU goes.

Just to open the discussion to others for all viewpoints?

I don't understand the secrecy and quite frankly it discredits your input, IMO.

FAQ

Yes! And we do! That's what I have said all along. It was my misses who got that mixed up.

at your "missus" (doesn't sound like a very "European" term to me) getting mixed up as to whether you receive CB or not

So we are supposed to accept all these misconceptions and confusions you have, and take your word for the tax structure in your native country and engage in a discussion viz a viz in relation to your perspective, but we're not allowed to know just what exactly your native perspective is?

Okay.

Am off to bed, untroubled by the threat of 'scroungers' to our tax bill. Drop in the ocean of my troubled dreams, as far as I'm concerned . . .

night expat

expat
I am really sorry. All I tried was to mediate between my wife's ill-worded thread and the huge amount of replies (most of them justified!). I am really sorry if my polite attempt failed with you.
And here is a suggestion for you, if I may: If you would like to discuss Social Security Systems of other countries, why don't you simply open a new thread?

And please, again, ignore my ignorance, but why is there any discreditation in my answers if I don't tell you which EU country I am from. Why would that add any value? And if I told you... You don't seem to believe a word I am writting anyway, right? So get over it.

if you told us then your posts about how it works in your country could be discussed - there are probably MNers living there and posting from there right now - or at least ones that have experienced it recently.

Basically - you're just winding everyone up without an leg to stand on with your "arguments"