to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

It depends how many hours per week if it's full-time education you cannot because you would not be classed as available..15.55hrs per week..once you hit 16hrs you are classed as unavailable..there is training available through the JCP that does not affect your availability..and even if it does it can be excused if it will help you back to work and you were refered via the JCP

I did not pretend to be an expert on social security systems. I was merely asked how things are handled in my home country, right? And that is exactly what I have done.

If my answer didn't add any value for you - fine. But I hope I answered blueshoes question.

Peachy I think from memory organisers were on 16-18K, which for the town I was living in was an average wage. At the same time I was offered a teaching job that pro rata paid double that an required less child care. SO in comparison to that it was a low wage.

Higher education must be funded through a government grant..the JCP is not equipped to offer that type of help unfortunately..I feel that they could use some of the money they give to training providers (£3000 per person) to provide sometimes low level and decidedly shit training..directly to clients via direct payment to colleges so they can train in something worthwhile and supportive of their experience...but Ho Hum ...roll on Flexible New deal...

she brought it up by starting this thread in general, mr., erm, husband .

nybomhusband, thanks for answering my question.

It would make sense that job seeker's allowance should not be given to people in ft education, as they are not available to take on work. They should be applying for another type of benefit.

I am not entirely familiar with the benefits system in UK but I assume something along the lines of income support.

Income support is claimed by lone parents, people with long term illnesses and disabilities and those with caring responsibilities - and is an important safety net. Reading the link, I believe people tend to lose income support benefits if they work more than 16 hours a week, or have a partner who works more than 24 hours a week. So there is a disincentive to work too much, in order to continue to claim.

But presumably, that is when tax credits kick in.

nybomshusband I am a bit confused. You say that 20% of a worker's earnings go on social security and that in your country twice as much does. Does that mean that people pay 40% NI or have I misunderstood?

PS - people in Britian don't pay 20% NI.

And so, like her, you're losing credibility by not addressing what she and now you have brought up.

You're unhappy with how things are here, according to your 'wife's' posts, which you say you are in accordance with.

So are you natrualised yet you can vote? You know the rules are changing for work permit/Tier II holders, don't you?

Going to be harder, for such folks, to obtain ILR or naturalisation. They'll be required to earn points towards continued permission to stay here. I'm talking about us non-EU/EEA by birth folks. Perhaps this does not pertain to you if you are such, I do not know as you have refused to divulge.

And so let's turn this around, and apply the DM strategy towards you. What sort of immigrant do we, who are British, want in our nation? Where do such notions, I perceive them to be rather restrictive and racist myself but then I am a leftist, have their origins?

How to your propose to align your beliefs in the face of its becoming harder and harder for all non-EU/EEA nationals to remain here indefinitely?

If you are not claiming Child Benefit and are in confusion about who can claim such a public fund for a child because you are still on FLR(O), do you feel that allying yourself with the right will further your cause?

Please, because you put yourself out there by a) starting this thread b) answering on behalf of your spouse, respond.

I've just noticed that nybomshusband sorry to sound harsh..but those things are also available here..I work in the system and know it's a poverty trap..and something used regularly to make a statement..these are mostly just people trying to live..and it sickens me when people make judgements about the money they recieve like they are living some fantastic alternate lifestyle ...

Me too Blueshoes....is WTC not better than income support (money wise) I mean?? Not sure how it works but is it not supposed to top your income up to a certain level (ie more than income support) ??

Why is it such a big deal what your country of origin is? There are many people here, from many different backgrounds. This is for the most part an anonymous board, after all.

Let's compare and contrast. I can think of three members who are German-born or living in Germany, one Italian, several British living in France either with British partner or husband, one Norwegian, couple of Brits living in Spain, more than a few other Americans with British partners, a few Canadians, etc.

not strictly true that if you're sacked you don't get JSA for 6 months, they look at why you were sacked, and want a response from your previous employer too. Many employers (ie those that sack for stupid reasons

expat - I know the points thing is a bummer - DH had just started to think about getting naturlised and getting his British passport....

(oh and you missed Zimbabwean off your list of nationalities )

Income support and JSA are completely different kinds of benefit..you lose benefit if you work under 16hrs for both but on IS and in some cases JSA if you find full time work and have children under 16 you would be entitled to In Work Credit of £60 per week as well as your salary if eligible..

K999, I don't know much about WTC either! But I think they could be very generous (yes, more than income support), if you structure it correctly. But an element will go towards childcare, which is something you probably won't need if on income support.

'is WTC not better than income support (money wise) I mean?? Not sure how it works but is it not supposed to top your income up to a certain level (ie more than income support) ?? '

Having been on WTC myself, I can say, unequivocally: NO. Definitely not. Not at all.

And therein lies a major problem.

Tax credits still costs about £600m pounds/annum to adminster.

And still makes about £1bn/annum in errors.

Ever been on the receiving end of such an error?

Because I have, whilst working.

We have never financially recovered. We are still in nearly the same amount of debt we were as the result of their cock-up.

And we count ourselves lucky.

expat, I brought up the country of origin issue because I come from a country with almost no social benefit system. I have come round to the UK system being a more humane one, but it took some adjustment initially, hence my question to the OP.

But clearly the OP's husband does not come from my background, so that's out of the way.

I hope that answers your question.

Ooops! My bad, FAQ. They've already made it harder and harder to naturalise since I did, back when it was just a £268 fee, but it is MOST DEFINITELY something to work towards as soon as, IMO. Because they are first going after the work permit/former HSMP people. But seeing as how they operate, the spouses of British nationals won't be far behind.

they should raise the NMW so that it's at a level which means that work is better than staying on benefits. Because right now for the working poor being in work leaves them worse off than benfits claimants. That's not to say that benefits claimants are having an easy life - of course not - but the working poor have it even harder.

Who in their right mind - already scraping by on benefits it's going to take a cut in monthly "income"????

You are not better off and if so only by a few pounds..then they fuck you up with Overpayments (can you tell i have a Overpayment )

oh lord don't even talk to me about fees - getting on for close to £1k once you've included everything

so if you claim WTC do all other benefits stop?? housing benefit for example (does that still exist?)

you may still qualify for a tiny bit of Housing Benefit (now know as LHA) and council benefit - but not much - and that's if you're lucky.

If people take a cut in income just by being in work (even with WTC top up), then that is counterproductive to getting people back in work and somewhat illogical IMO.

In this aspect, the UK system does not work correctly.

Thank you, blueshoes. I come from a background which would be considered extremely privileged in the UK.

My father, however, is a first generation American, and hold dual nationality with Mexico, where his parents lived until adulthood and were born.

He was brought up in poverty in the 1940s and early 1950s.

My mother's mother was a French immigrant and her father's family also Mexican in original origin. I think he was maybe 2nd generation, we're not really sure.

They have certain attitudes. About poverty. About opportunities.

Fortunately, they don't feel some of them are appropriate for the world wide web.