to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

DH and I may have made a 'stupid' decision to have kids, even though we were both on benefits, but with virtually no job prospects in the future how long were we supposed to wait? After we had the twins, which was VERY unexpected, it was nine years until we had DD3 - so we hardly rushed into having loads of kids.

As for why we are unemployed still? Peachy's post stating 'There is also another key thing- the worst off a person ever is IME is when you go back to work; benefits stop paying you becuase you are earning, but you have to get there, pay childcare, catch the bus, eat etc.' just about says it all.

We are not in debt (although it's been a close call sometimes when white goods have broken), we don't waste our money, DH works damn hard when he's on a Work Placement, and we teach our kids that working is good because you can then afford more luxuries like holidays, meals out, parties etc if you get a good education first and are prepared to start at the bottom!

Despite this i expect we are classed as scroungers by most. I see it as I am doing my best for my family because DH's and my options are limited. I am also hoping to manage to work towards a degree through OU although I have been told by my 'advisor' that I should just go into work right now.

Hi guys,

just to kill this one:

We may have the same style as we come from the same country, have a similar background and have been living together for a couple of years now.

Of course - I can't proove it here.

Godzilla - whats putting you off going into work just now?

I think the real problems is the vast desparity between minimum wage/close to minimum wage and the cost of living in this country, particularly property values and those of course have a direct bearing on rents.

Yes, there are working tax credits, but the biggest issue is that your housing and council tax benefit virtually disappears, yet you wind up with a rental/council bill of easily £6000-£7000 pounds, or more depending on the city/area, to be paid out of net earnings.

Nope, sorry, still don't buy it

DH is a bit rubbish at looking after DD3, for one

Only got GCSEs and no experience

The one month wait for wages when supporting 3 kids

£100 pw rent

Migraines every time we have low pressure and for 3 days when i have a period (and i am already on medication which reduces the number of attacks i have)

But mainly that the jobs i could get will leave my family worse off.

i find some odd points coming out here - somewhere way back in the depths of this thread made a distinction between a) the workng poor and B) the 'scumderclass' (not my words)

now, people often confuse the two. But no-one hates group B more than group A - whilst working as a lav cleaner (actually a decent summer job) i was quite suprised by the level of unbridled hatred dealt out towards the 'council estate families' by the other bog ladies. They are of course, Sun/ DM readers to a woman!

But........envy is inappropriate, hatred is inappropriate - who would want to be one of these people?

although the money spent in early intervention may seem wrong to some, its a lot better than spending that money on prison space/ policing/ taking their kids into care/etc and dealing with worse results as a consequence.

i believe you're nybom's dh - seems quite diff stlye IMO, plainer.

The 'system' is set up by people who never lived on it, so they can't for the life of them see its failings.

Things like targets. Those are for darts and archery, not people.

As long as work doesn't pay as much as benefits, and before you trot out all that twaddle about getting a higher paid job not everyone can be a middle- or higher-earner and society still function, then there will be those who remain on benefits.

"We may have the same style as we come from the same country, have a similar background and have been living together for a couple of years now."

Goood lord - I'm glad I never married my clone

I don't care if its the Dh or not, MN is open access.

Iam working poor (well Dh is,so accuraytely we, as a family, areworking poor) and I don't ahte the underclas (will not use such a nasty term). But then i've actually seen inside the lifestyle growing up on an estate with arep

I wouldn't choose it for the world

nybom/nybomhusband, which country are you from, can you say, and does it have a social benefits system?

We are working poor and feel as Peachy does.

I'm not working poor - but see my post a little further down expat about the working poor .

I'm an immigrant and a naturalised Brit.

I'm really proud of being British and that people here are, on the whole, a bit more understanding and compassionate. I'm proud to be bringing up Scottish children.

And you know, posts like the OP always raise my hackles and make me a bit defensive of the place where I was able to come and make a new life, and have a family.

Basically, if you don't like how things are run here, why don't you leave? No one's forcing you to stay here, and there are plenty of folks who'd be happy to come in your place, work and pay tax and not bitch ab out the system and how things are done here.

In other words, you know where the door is, don't let it hit you on the way out.

@ Expats to the point posts

Hi blueshoes,

I have been living over here for 8 years now and the social benefits system in my country has changed a lot since then. So I can't really comment too much.

However, in my opinion the social security system of a country (from health to unemployment and pension benefits) are closely linked to the amount of social security contributions payed by employers and employees. Over here it equates to just over 20% of earnings, whereas over in my home country that amount is double - hence the social security system seems to be more generous - if that is the right word - and more resources are spent to ensure that it reaches the right part of the population.

Hope this makes sense!

'So I can't really comment too much'

Why not? Since you, or your wife rather, brought it up, yet fails to discuss in detail her stance.

I'm from the US myself.

And FWIW, I think their systems sucks. Point blank.

That's one of the many reasons I don't live there anymore and never will.

Thanks, nybomhusband.

Intriguing point about how more resources are spent in your country to ensure they reach the right part of the population. How does your country ensure that benefits do not reach 'irresponsible' individuals without penalising 'bad luck' individuals?

If I was living out of a suitcase in a motel room I might actually purchase cut fruit and other prepared foods (little sausages come to mind, actually) and certainly air freshener-I mean really would that not be essential- because cut fruit would be cheaper and probably healthier than eating out.

@ expatinscotland
I don't believe I or my wife brought the advantages and disadvantages of different social security systems up. I tried to explain in my own words what my wife tried (and miserably failed!!!) to bring across, but the benefits system as a whole was not part of the discussion.
I simply answered blueshoes question to the best of my knowledge.

@ blueshoes
It comes down to a proper investigation of all circumstances. Funds are spent for secondary education and people are being penalised for turning jobs down.

Another way which prooved to be successful is tax relief for companies who take on aprenticees and long-term unemployed people and by paying a bonus to employer and employee if employment is secured for a certain amount of time.

Unfortunately there will always be 'bad luck' individuals and 'irresponsible' individiuals who fall through the close nit web.

That is basically the problem with legislation in general: It will never be able to take individual's circumstances into account, but pool a group of people together.

nybomshusband people in this country are penalised for turning work down if they apply and get work but turn it down or get themselves sacked they are unable to recieve JSA for 6mths..during that time they may apply for Hardship payments of half what they recieve on JSA..and if you want figures you get £60.50 or JSA..so before you jump to conclusions know they system..and education/training is also available when a person is not in work..[slinks off]

Actually you get told not to go in for education if it will interfere with your Jobsearch, mumcentreplus, and if signing on you aren't allowed to do ft education. Otherwise you might actually get off the bottom rung i assume (not an attack on you btw but on the system)!

'Another way which prooved to be successful is tax relief for companies who take on aprenticees and long-term unemployed people and by paying a bonus to employer and employee if employment is secured for a certain amount of time.'

The government is currently paying companies to employ staff with training provided worth upto £1500,they also support apprenticeship schemes...know what you are talking about..

Well, ok you might be able to start ft education, but you have to pack it in at the drop of a hat when you do a Work Placement.

Ohhhh...i meant as in higher education, not training. I know they do training - that's why there are so few proper jobs around. The companies employ trainees, then asap they are 'let go'.