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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to lack sympathy for my friend who is unable to conceive

349 replies

babyetcetera · 14/06/2009 22:19

We went to uni together and my friend met her husband there - they've been together ever since. In the meantime, some of us had children and she went on to have an amazing career...

When she and her husband have celebrated a big milestone in their marriage they decided to TTC. This was when she was 41. It's now been two years and she is in agonies talking about IVF etc.

I'm finding it hard to keep being sympathetic. Of course I am supporting her and I am devastated for her, but I keep thinking that she chose her life and is now being really REALLY unrealistic about having a baby.

Have I lost sight of any sort of human compassion or am I being realistic at this point?

OP posts:
MrsTittleMouse · 16/06/2009 12:22

And yes, women having fertility treatment can become complete loonies and get completely obsessive. It's practically compulsary. I'm sure that friends can get a bit fed up of it sometimes, but it's a hell of a lot easier to be a friend who can get a bit bored listening and then go home to their children and their life, than it is to be an infertile woman.

amberatkins · 16/06/2009 12:27

I hate the phrase 'having children is a privilege, not a right'. Wanting children is a built in biological desire. We are designed to want kids (though as with everything there are always exceptions to the rule).

LLkJJ - 'We don't all get everything we want in life' - You make it sound like people are disappointed to not be getting a new widescreen TV or something. I don't know if you realise it but you come across as very unfeeling.

kitstwins · 16/06/2009 12:32

Curiosity Killed I've a few points I'd like to raise.

Firstly, your statistics: -

" The average success rate for IVF treatment using fresh eggs in the UK is
28.2% (for women under 35);
23.6% (for women aged 35-37)
18.3% (for women aged 38-39)
10.6% (for women aged 40-42)
The average success rate for Donor Insemination treatment in the UK is
14.1% (for women under 35);
8.3% (for women aged 35-39)
4.9% (for women aged 40-42) "

They're just statistics you know, dear. Rather like reproductive biology and natural conception, they vary from individual to individual. I did IVF under the age of 35 (33 to be precise) and my statistics were much higher. Around 70% according to my clinic, as my egg quality was good and I was, to quote my fertility doctor, "pelvically perfect". Our misfortune was that my husband has complex male factor issues, possibly related to a cycling accident in his early thirties (a bicycle between the legs when he wrapped himself around a bus cycling home from work one evening). But I digresss. You spout the statistics as if they're written on holy stone, but they're just statistics. I know plenty of women at 38 plus (some 41, 42) who've conceived their children the first or second month of trying, far quicker than me with my perfect pelvis and great egg quality. They're not the norm, but don't lump everyone under the same dismal banner simply to justify your ill informed comments. And next time, when you go trigger-happy with your 'cut and paste' on googled fertility stats, try reading some of the information behind it too. You might learn something.

Secondly, your comments about infertile couples adopting is SO crass and ill thought out. No one ever lectures the fertile about adopting before they ditch the contraceptive and go at it over a Chinese takeaway and a bottle of wine. Seemingly, the fertile are entitled to concieve as and when they wish - presumably their prize for being biologically superior - and the sub fertile can deal with the adoption crisis can't they? All very tidy and neat.

You make it sound as if there's a giant supermarket where the reproductively inadequate can just pitch up and pick a child. Have you ANY idea of what is involved in the adoption process? Have you really any clue as to the hoops you have to jump through to be approved for adoption? And that's if you get approved - it's not a guaranteed just because you want it. Age, location, a myriad of other reasons all factor in the final decision.

Curiosity you give it a few years and then make your smug little call to the adoption agency. Tell them you'll take on everyone, 'anything', as you say. After all, it's easy. Or even better, wait thirty years until your daughter can't have children (or has married someone who can't have children) and make sure you sit her down somewhere comfortable and lecture her about how she shouldn't have left it so late and that she should just accept her lot and start adopting.

You're so naive I can only hope this is a spectacular joke or wind up. If it isn't, and you really believe the ill-informed, thoughtless and smug trip that you've trotted out then I can only shake my head wearily and conclude that time and life will teach you. Some of us have to live a few more lifetimes to really understand empathy. You've got some way to go yet.

Do a bit of reading and don't just cherry pick some stats to make you feel better about your smug little life. The HFEA website is a good place to start. www.hfea.gov.uk. At the moment you're just commenting on issues about which you know nothing - either emotionally/personally or intellectually - which is why you're coming out with such embarrassingly ill-informed rubbish. At least if you get some facts under your belt you can add some sense to what is understandably for many unfortunate people a very sensitive issue.

stillstanding · 16/06/2009 12:36

OP, I think you have taken some hard knocks on this thread. The answer to the question you pose in the title to your thread is clearly YABU because she is your friend and is going through something awful and one should have sympathy for her in those circumstances.

In your actual post though you make it clear that you are supporting her and are devastated for her but just that you find it hard to keep being sympathetic. And I do have some sympathy for that.

We all know the stats and her leaving it so late was a very real risk. Personally I was very conscious of the 35 year old mark and despite work pressures decided to try to have DCs before then. My career has definitely suffered for that but having children was something far too important to me for me to take unnecessary risks.

So I do understand what you are saying. Having said that infertility is a terrible, terrible thing and what your friend is experiencing is not something that I would wish on my worst enemy. The agony of knowing that her waiting so long to start trying is almost certainly a contributing factor and must really add to her pain. So even though she has made some (what to you and me look like) bad choices please do support her and try to imagine how you would feel if you couldn't have DCs when you are struggling to muster up sympathy.

beanieb · 16/06/2009 12:37

well said Kitstwins. The reality is that no one know they are infertile until they have tried and failed, and that includes women over 40. Like others have also said often it is not the woman in the partnership (if it's a heterosexual one) who is the one with the problem.

talbot · 16/06/2009 12:56

But don't you accept that women have over 40 are less fertile than younger women? Not saying one shouldn't have sympathy but doesn't everyone accept that as a fact?

beanieb · 16/06/2009 13:00

yes I do. Like I said earlier, at 39 I kknow there will come a point where I will have to accept I am no longer fertile. I have been trying for almost 2 years and fallen pregnant once (miscarried) so I know what my odds are. On the other hand all tests have shown that I have good egg reserve and am ovulating still so my diagnosis at the moment is unexplained infertility.

andiem · 16/06/2009 13:05

yes talbot it is a fact no one is disputing that but infertility is not just a 'fact' it is a heart wrenching emotional rollercoaster that until you have been through it you cannot truly understand
ime facts are what people who have no experience of infertility like to ram down the throats of those who are having difficulty conceiving usually as they smugly sit there with their children
it can take a long time to find out that you are having problems
I had ds1 when I was 35 bang pregnant first go started trying again at 38 to have ds2 and it took 2 years before we got a diagnosis and started treatment so I was 41 when I had him
this thread is about showing compassio to people who are suffering not ramming facts at them

kitstwins fab post

Cosmosis · 16/06/2009 13:13

Yes of course people accept that fertility goes down over 40, but does that mean you have to stop trying?

StewieGriffinsMom · 16/06/2009 13:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

talbot · 16/06/2009 13:17

I agree with you but many posts seem to be suggesting that deliberately waiting until you're over 40 before even starting to TTC is a reasonable course of action. Whilst it is of course everyone's own decision, it must be accepted that by doing that, you are taking a higher risk than if you started earlier.

I have unending sympathy for older women who hadn't met their partner earlier or for whatever reason were unable to try and conceive. Whilst I would be desperately sad for a friend who made the conscious decision to delay having babies until they were in their 40's and was then unsuccessful, I know that I couldn't help but wonder why they didn't try earlier when the odds were so much more in their favour.

beanieb · 16/06/2009 13:20

why is it an unreasonable course of action? If that's what a person decides to do then why should a friend make an extra effort to criticise them. Sure, inwardly the OP can be critical I guess - if that's what floats their boat, but to say it out loud or heaven forbid say it to their friend is just mean.

beanieb · 16/06/2009 13:25

It didn't help me at 35+ to have close friends telling me to 'get a move on because you might not be able to have kids and they might have downs syndrome' - I found it rude and insensitive. Certainly they could have worded it better. Of course, all of them had children of their own.

Cosmosis · 16/06/2009 13:25

Like beanieb said, why is it unreasonable? I'm sure the woman concerned is aware there are increased risks, as I said in my post above, I am aware there are. But I really don't get why that means she shouldn't try, and try with a positive attitude?

You can wonder all you like, our reasons are personal thanks.

Morloth · 16/06/2009 13:25

Of course talbot but facts don't make things hurt less nor that you have to accept something as inevitable if there is any hope at all of change.

talbot · 16/06/2009 13:32

I didn't say it was unreasonable to try after 40. I am simply saying that I'm surprised that anyone who makes a deliberate and conscious decision to wait until they are in their 40's before trying for their first child (i.e. have been with their partner for many years) would do so without being aware of the risk they're taking.

I speak as someone who is supporting a number of friends in their 40's over the heartbreak of infertility but none of them had any choice as they weren't in a position to try earlier.

AitchTwoOh · 16/06/2009 13:34

i'm with talbot. if my 70 year old friend broke her hip hang-gliding i would sympathise with her pain but still think she was a bit of an idiot to go hang-gliding at that age, when by virtue of age her bones are more likely to break.

beanieb · 16/06/2009 13:34

why is it unreasonable to deliberately wait until you are 40+ before wanting to try for kids?

like loads of people have said, those who do wait are aware of the facts.

spicemonster · 16/06/2009 13:34

You can wonder why they didn't try earlier but that doesn't mean you should be unsympathetic. I think a lot of women of my age (I'm 44) believed their fertility will continue unabated and that there was never the 'right' time to start tying. And let's not forget the fact that there are two people in a relationship and for a lot of us, it was their partners who were reluctant to start trying to conceive when they were in their early 30s.

I had my first child when I was 42, no fertility treatment, got pregnant first attempt. I was very, very lucky but several of my friends haven't been as fortunate. I have nothing but immense sympathy for anyone who it hasn't worked out for. Infertility is infertility - who knows if they would have encountered fertility issues if they had been younger? Quite possibly but we simply don't know.

And I see curiositykilled hasn't come back to respond to my earlier challenge about the alleged increased dangers of pregnancy and childbirth for the older mother. Funny that

AitchTwoOh · 16/06/2009 13:37

haven't read it, spicey, but seems to be relevant

beanie, if they're aware of the risks then they should imo take some responsibility for having taken them.

ErikaMaye · 16/06/2009 13:39

Wow. Just... Wow.

In responce to the OP - I can understand that you are prehaphs jealous because if she does have a child she have pretty much what most people would consider everything. And I actually respect you an awfual lot for coming out with how you're feeling on here instead of shunning her at a difficult period in her life. The more supportive you can be to her right now, the better it will be. I'm glad you have healthy children in your life but you need to remember now that it is more common for women to wait a lot later (No offence to anyone intended by that comment) to have their first child.

I really hope you can try and dislodge your prejudices against it, and against what she is doing. She will need a friend right now.

~

As to everything else that has been said on here, I must admit I am really really shocked. I joined this website because I was told how informative and supportive it was - I guess I have just read the negative side. curiosity, your posts really offended me, a hell of a lot more than the OP.

I'm not debating that if people wish to adopt they should have the option to, but they should just as equally have the option to concienve.

I don't think anyone is debating their desire for a healthy child, if simply for the fact that it is horrible to watch another human being suffer. But just because there are disabled children in the care system, that doesn't mean that IVF shouldn't be available to those who wish to try it.

Hey, I'm physically disabled, with Borderline Personality Disorder, and I'm just 18. I figure that there are three things right there you can probably find room to critise me for, considering my baby is due in November.

I hate the negativity in society. What does it matter how old a couple are? If they have decided to bring a child into the world - be it through a drunken night, IVF, adoption, planned conception or whatever! - then they all fall under the same umbrella, and that of parents. Age is merely a number.

talbot · 16/06/2009 13:39

I agree spicemonster - I am sympathetic but still can't help but wonder why run the risk when you have choices available.
Beanieb, yet again, I didn't say it was "unreasonable", simply that I'm surprised that someone would voluntarily make that decision without being aware of the risks.

I am older than my DH and we got married when I was 34. I was paranoid about ddeclining fertility and insisted we start trying straight away and sure enough, our first arrived 9 months to the day after our wedding. Two years later though and I was having fertility treatment.

spicemonster · 16/06/2009 13:44

While that article mentions increased risks it focuses on increased liklihood of miscarriage and reduced fertility which I would never dispute. I have researched this issue aitch - you would have done too if you had been me - but I have never been able to find any statistics. My consultant told me there were no conclusive studies showing that older women or their babies (once conceived and shown to be healthy) are at increased risk

spicemonster · 16/06/2009 13:47

I agree with that article incidentally - like I said earlier, I think a lot of women have been misled about the stark reality of declining fertility. And it isn't helped by the number of celebs who allegedly have babies in their 40s and don't mention their fertility treatment - I'm convinced that's led to a general sense that it's fine to wait.

Actually I don't think it's women that need telling, it's men. My sister's husband for example - wanted a big family but wouldn't start trying until my sister had turned 36. They have one child and numerous unsuccessful attempts at various forms of fertility treatment. That makes me very cross

Cosmosis · 16/06/2009 13:48

Talbot I think the only people who think that those who have waited are unaware of the risks are the people critiscising those who have waited!

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