to lack sympathy for my friend who is unable to conceive

[babyetcetera]

We went to uni together and my friend met her husband there - they've been together ever since. In the meantime, some of us had children and she went on to have an amazing career...

When she and her husband have celebrated a big milestone in their marriage they decided to TTC. This was when she was 41. It's now been two years and she is in agonies talking about IVF etc.

I'm finding it hard to keep being sympathetic. Of course I am supporting her and I am devastated for her, but I keep thinking that she chose her life and is now being really REALLY unrealistic about having a baby.

Have I lost sight of any sort of human compassion or am I being realistic at this point?

qally - where have you read me saying all infertile people should adopt? I am saying I think ppl who will ONLY consider IVF because they are afraid the children will be difficult should maybe question why they want a child at all.

The average success rate for IVF treatment using fresh eggs in the UK is
28.2% (for women under 35);
23.6% (for women aged 35-37)
18.3% (for women aged 38-39)
10.6% (for women aged 40-42)
The average success rate for Donor Insemination treatment in the UK is
14.1% (for women under 35);
8.3% (for women aged 35-39)
4.9% (for women aged 40-42)

milamae - so if your own biological child was abused for a number of years you wouldn't be able to cope?

Apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying Curiosity. You just give the general impression (To me at least) that you think a diagnosis of infertility (in either partner I assume) should be enough to make people give up trying for their own so that they can adopt.

FWIW I probably won't go down the IVF route myself, mostly because of the cost, but I will try everything else inbetween. I am relatively lucky in that my diagnosis is unexplained infertility rather than a medical issue. My SIL to be is 33 and has been trying for 8 years to get pregnant. Her recent IVF resulted in a pregnancy and then a miscarriage. She has been through years of mis-diagnosis and finally felt she had success. Her problems are nothing to do with her age and IVF has almost worked for her. I hope when she has IVF again she is able to carry her pregnancy to term as she is a wonderful person who deserves to have the family she has wanted for many years. At 33 I don't think she is quite prepared to give up on assisted techniques yet

but aitch what if they just made a mistake? i wonder whether i have done something similar myself in not pursuing second child more vigorously than i have. i am 40 now. so practically dead in childbearing terms.

(columnist is really getting money's worth do we think dm or glossy?)

you are one whacked-out lady, curiosity. what's wrong with someone wanting to have their biological child?
my aunt and uncle's adoption broke down, they are capable parents to three children already, very good candidates etc. but the boy, who they loved, just wasn't capable of loving them and over the years became intolerably violent. broke everyone's heart, apart from the poor lad himself who was so damaged that his attachment disorder wouldn't allow him to care.

i totally agree, aitch, that's how i feel towards the family member in v similar position. To start ttc in your early 40s with the expectation that it's no different biologically from trying 10 yrs sooner is obviously a huge mistake.

curiosity - have you adopted? Are you planning to adopt? Why is it only people with fertility issues that are under a moral obligation to adopt?

wrt to the difficulties associated with older child adoption - it is one thing to embrace what ever difficulties your child happens to develop - it is quite another to actually choose to take on those difficulties. I know some people do - but I know many epople wouldn't. E.g., if dd was seriously disabled I would still love her, not regret her, and do what ever I could for her - but I wouldn't actually choose to have a disabled child.

There is a saying in the adoption world that 'love is not enough'. I've been involved in adoption counselling for many years. I was adopted from care myself. I have one dd from IVF but we are considering/have considered adopting. You are making a very complex situation sound so simple - you just really have no idea what you are talking about.

fishie, I think you just hit the nail on the head there. At 25, 40 probably seems ancient.

lissielou - I am sorry you are upset by what I'm saying BUT I think you haven't really understood my point, you have no clue about anything in my life and I'm not going to be pushed into publicly talking about all my own experiences just to make a point.

fishie- I'm well aware 40 is not ancient, however risk increases after 40 and IVF success rates significantly fall. I think the Doctor's have a responsibility to make this clear to people and not sell them a dream that, in reality, is very unlikely to be successful.

if they made a mistake and recognise that, i think that would be easier to sympathise with. cos to err is human and all that, we all arse things up. but i'd find it difficult not to want to shake the lapels of a pal who was freaking out about their right to have a baby for the first time at 41. i hope you get to have your second baby, fishie, but yes, you may have fucked it up. i mourn not having a third child but i deffo fucked that up, i'm too old at 38, with my health problems now i know that i could endanger a third child. but that's not the same as making a decision not to have children and then deciding 'game on' at 41.

curiosity, I don't think your personal life struggles are at all elevant here TBH. People are just disagreeing with your stance on IVF and older mothers.

relevant... woops

OP hasn't been back. Hmm, how odd.

who's the journo anyway? Which paper?

Adoption is NOT the same as having a birth child by IVF or otherwise. It is very very different and it should not be thrown into the mix with a 'well if they cant conceive why dont they just adopt?'

I wonder if the OP is feeling a bit pissed off with her friend and this thread is the result? Couples desperate to conceive can be obsessed, boring , very narky, loopy and really hard to stay friends with. Because its so bloody bloody hard to want a baby and for it not to happen. Then there is all the poking and prodding and horrible drugs and heartbreaking disapointment every month. Its enough to make anyone unlikeable for a while. And it can be a strain to put up with.

My friend was like this. I took a year to get pg [at 40]. I had no idea I could still conceive and had just lost my DD so it was a really emotional time for me. Friend is much younger than me and was desperate and on treatment. I know she really wanted to be glad for me but it tore her up that I was pg and she wasnt. She cut herself off from me for months. I found this upsetting and tried to understand. She was being selfish but I could see why she was. I knew that underneath she was a lovely caring person so I just had to trust she didnt mean to hurt me.

I have her back now and she is due to have her baby this week . It was tough to hang on to her though.

Maybe that is why OP is finding it hard to be sympathetic?

lissielou - I am sorry you are upset by what I'm saying BUT I think you haven't really understood my point, you have no clue about anything in my life and I'm not going to be pushed into publicly talking about all my own experiences just to make a point.

im afraid i dont think you are really understanding what we are saying. you have said that deciding to go down the IVF route when there are children who need homes is selfish. i am saying that you have no right to judge until you have walked in the shoes of an infertile woman.

you have said that people who would rather have an IVF child than adopt a damaged one should look at why they want children. i am saying that you have no right to judge until you have walked in her shoes.

you have said that if you were infertile you would have adopted rather than use assisted conception. i am saying why is infertility the dealbreaker, if you felt so strongly why did you not adopt your dc(s)?

beanieb - not at all, by all means try as long as you want. I'm worried about fertility doctors (literally) selling people a dream. And it's not so much the having IVF that's the problem as the ones who have IVF and absolutely will not consider adoption or want a particular type of child at the end.

acinonyx - I did not say at any stage infertile ppl should just adopt. I said I worry about people who will only consider IVF and will not consider adoption. People who want children should at least consider adoption.

Whatever anyone wants to think about my age and my potential ageism. The facts speak for themselves - after 40 pregnancy and labour are more risky for both mother and baby, chromosomal abnormalities are more likely, chances of falling pregnant naturally/of IVF being successful are greatly reduced. All I'm saying is people should understand these facts.

My own feelings about the morals of IVF clearly only affect my own choices in my life about IVF I only got dragged into expressing my opinions about this because someone asked me to explain why I wished IVF had never been invented. IVF is widely available for those who can afford it.

curiositykilled i hope you can learn from this thread. if you are so keen to judge people but unwilling to share your own experiences then you cannot expect others to respect your opinion.

I'm usually a lurker here but reading what Curiosity said - "I'm absolutely positive I would have gone through the adoption process in this country if I had been unable to concieve. I would have taken anything they offered - sibling groups, severely disabled, teenagers, anything... I have always thought this, even since childhood" - has left me with a mixture of extreme anger and a need to explain.
Yes Curiosity, since childhood I am sure - but if you had really thought about this in an adult way and found out something about adoption you would have discovered that is is not so simple. I comment as someone who assessed potential adopters and matched the successful ones to children in need of families. Adoption is not a substitute for having your own child, it is very different and quite seriously it is not for everyone. I take my hat off to the wonderful adpoptive parents that I have met, but belive me they are very skilled people, and in the minority. Your argument is about as facile as the often quoted "they just need love". The vast diversity of experiences of children in need of adoptive parents mitigates against your simplistic approach of "I would have taken on any of them". Children who have had a raw deal in life need a very special and specific response. A vast body of experience and research into adoption shows that is just does not work the way you describe. These children will have had experiences that are likely to have damaged them in different ways, and they need appropriate responses from their new families. No one person could be able to provide what all of these children need, which is partly why the adoption and matching process is so detailed. They will need considerable help from their new families to understand and come to terms with their experiences and this is not easy, it is certainly nothing like bringing up a child of your own. I am trying here to explain a little, but I have to add that Curiosity, you have made me very angry,your understanding of family life you describe in your profile is not reflected in your posts, which really are full of opinionated comments with no justification, very niave and immature. Please, please think before you open your mouth and upset so many people.

curiosity, you say: "I only got dragged into expressing my opinions about this because someone asked me to explain why I wished IVF had never been invented."

Which means that you wish that all babies born to their parents through IVF had not been born, and their parents had adopted children.

And you wish this state of affairs while enjoying your own biological DCs, thinking vaguely about how you will adopt yourself "later in life."

Yet you cannot see how utterly selfish, insulting, and I'm-all-right-Jack-pull-up-the-ladder your views are.

I am quite stunned by you. (Not in a good way.)

I think most people who are trying for children after 35 ARE aware of these facts. We are also aware of the testing available to us, the health changes we can make and the efforts it can take. I don't know a single long term TTCer who hasn't changed their lifestyle or stepped up their efforts to try to conceive. At the very least most older women trying for a child make great efforts to get themselves healthy and fit. we know it's not as simple as just having sex and hoping for the best.

We don't need to be told the stats regarding getting pregnant over 35, we do read and we do our research. Knowing these things doesn't make the process any less emotional.

Curiosity, I wonder how you would support a aughter or your son's future partner if they were having issues with their fertility. Would you still have the same 'deal with it or adopt' attitude if your own children were unable to conceive?

But dr give patients the odds - my dr most certainly did not sell me a dream. I was 43 when i had dd. My chances were put at 5-6 %. Who are all these people doing IVF that don't understand the odds? I haven't met any (and I have talked to A LOT).

We considered adoption and decided against it. I am mildly irritated by your attitude to IVF but I have good friends who feel the same - it's the attitude to adoption that is really irritating. Seems a shame that anyone could wish that dd had never been born.

I always say that to do IVF you have to be willing to put your money out on the lawn and burn it. We burned a lot of money - but thankfuly not all of it. I actually did IVF again at 45 (few clinics here would do that) and totally knew what I was doing. I just had to try, and I was as good a candidate for my age as you can get.

lissielou - I have never said people who would rather have an IVF child than adopt should look at why they want children. I said people who will only consider IVF and don't want adoption because they might get a damaged child should look at why they want children. Plenty of people don't get a child even after paying for IVF. To go down the IVF route because you want a baby and don't want a child with problems is a bit selfish. It may also be quite realistic but it is a bit selfish.

Infertility is not a deal breaker, it's just that your own natural fertility (if you are fertile) has a time limit. You can adopt a child at any age. Therefore if I want biological dcs then it's better to do them first. I also don't think infertile ppl should 'just adopt' I have never said that. It makes me question someone's reasons for wanting a child if they would rather be childless than adopt. I wouldn't rather be childless than adopt.

I am also saying what do you know of my experiences?

I know nothing of your experience because you have chosen not to tell me. Is it relevant?

ffs and here i leave you to it. you obviously don't understand what you have said that has incensed so many people, and i for one am tired of trying to explain.

good night.