to lack sympathy for my friend who is unable to conceive

[babyetcetera]

We went to uni together and my friend met her husband there - they've been together ever since. In the meantime, some of us had children and she went on to have an amazing career...

When she and her husband have celebrated a big milestone in their marriage they decided to TTC. This was when she was 41. It's now been two years and she is in agonies talking about IVF etc.

I'm finding it hard to keep being sympathetic. Of course I am supporting her and I am devastated for her, but I keep thinking that she chose her life and is now being really REALLY unrealistic about having a baby.

Have I lost sight of any sort of human compassion or am I being realistic at this point?

Sycamortreeisvile Thanks for your kind words, it is indeed a very emotive subject for me which I am sure some will have done a search for my previous posts so wont go into here.

I stand by my original post which has now been deleted by MNHQ, and I am sure I will get a slap on the wrists but I couldn't give a flying TBH, It was MVHO, still is.

Stepping away from thread now, cant be bothered to waste any more energy on it, just wanted to say thanks

I haven't read the full thread, but has anybody pointed out that she may have had issues ttc in her 20's as well, just not evident until now she is actually ttc, and people are less sympathetic because of her age?

Well if it is a journalist, they've certainly got their moneys worth with this one.

OP, yes YABU.
Your friend has, it would seem, left it late but to think that she is somehow less deserving of sympathy because of it is very harsh. I cannot even begin to imagine how painful it must be to want a child and not be able to conceive or carry a child to term, regardless of age. In fact I can only think that it must be even worse when you are in your forties and aware that realistically the chances of having a successful pregnancy are so much less than they were when you were 20. Anyone going through that should have the support of people calling themselves friends.

"Considering the insults that the OP got on here I can't believe Curiosity has gotten off so lightly."

Precisely.

Lecturing the less biologically lucky in the fertility lottery on how they're selfish, and should just adopt. Breathtaking.

You do know that older child adoptions break down around 50% of the time, which is horrendous for all concerned? Many, many kids are very damaged, and while they need and deserve all the love and care in the world, many (perhaps most) adults are just not emotionally equipped to provide that when a child is testing them every single way they can. I don't believe I could. It isn't just the process that's not a piece of cake, you do realise? Adoption can be a magnificent success, please don't think I am for one second denigrating the bond when it does succeed. Parents are parents. But you are completely, insensitively out of line in lecturing women who have difficulty conceiving on how trying to do so makes them selfish. Isn't it just as selfish for any of us to have babies when so many older kids need adopting? Why is being less fertile somehow marking you as undeserving of pregnancy? It's an illogical, punitive, insensitive and selfish stance. You're all right Jack, but those infertile types should adopt.

well, I think she's just being honest - she admits to lacking sympathy. I can understand to some extent, my sister has been ttc for a couple of yrs but is now 42.She's been with her dh for 15 years and it's only in the past 2 years that they've even been trying even tho children were part of their overall life plan. They were quite open about the fact that it was always the wrong time, house not big enough, new job to apply for etc etc ie in my opinion completely bloody unrealistic! I can understand it if someone meets their partner later in life but to hang around for lifestyle reasons when you ARE in a secure committed relationship and both want kids is very foolish. I would never say this to my sister, obviously, maybe i'm a bitch for thinking it but we all have secret sometimes not too saintly thoughts about our dear ones, don't we?! Or is it just me! I also agree that our generation has been sadly mis-sold the idea of having it all, I pity those poor buggers like op's friend who were silly enough to believe it.

Curiosity you are talking absolute ignorant rubbish.

Dp and I were told it would be impossible for us to conceive naturally I went on to carry full term 2 bouncing twin boys from a frozen ICSI cycle. I then conceived dd naturally. Clearly my infertility didn't mean carrying babies was impossible as you suggest.

There are many reasons why women have problems conceiving eg some women can't conceive because their tubes are blocked IVF just bypasses the tubes-it's not rocket science why on earth wouldn't anybody give it a go.

Yes infertility is hideous but IVF when you take away the longing,terror it might not work and disappointment is a walk in the park by comparison. It's what's caused the need to have it that makes it hideous not the process. Do you actually know what is involved?You are basically just sticking needles in daily for a month something diabetics endure for life. You end up with severe PMS symtoms and some discomfort. It's nothing compared to the agony of facing up to a childless future.

What exactly are you talking about when you wonder what the risks of being an IVF child are. My boys were simply injected into an egg the same way as your children and my dd injected themselves,from that moment on they develop the same way. They come into the world a baby just the same as any other-where are the risks exactly?

I wanted a baby I wasn't particularly bothered if it was my child biologically but I wanted a baby. The fact is if you adopt in this country you are very unlikely to have a younger child.

I've worked with older children with problems such as you describe and know I'm in no way cut out to be a parent to such children. I could teach them yes but I wouldn't have been strong enough to parent them. I don't have the financial or mental capacity and personally I think it's far less selfish to acknowledge that than to merrily adopt children you're not cut out to parent because you think you'll have a bash at being Mother Teresa.

If I had endless respite care,a huge house and the patience of a saint I'd adopt several kids with problems but the fact is I didn't have any of those resources so I made the best choice.

Those of us that have stared all the options in the face know our capabilities and to have faced up to them takes a lot of strength and selflessness. It's not nice knowing there are children out there you just aren't up to parenting.

I have several friends who have adopted and they hate people portraying it as the easy option-it isn't and it's not something that is suitable for everybody. We're talking about real children's needs here not the needs of people to be parents. These children need the right parents not any old parent.

As others have said-why exactly are adopted children the responsibility of the infertile and indeed why haven't you gone down the adoption route yourself, as you say there are many children out there who need a home?

Qally - having IVF not being infertile! What I mean is ppl having IVF need to look at why they want a child at all if they are so willing to immediately exclude adoption and are only willing to consider IVF. If you can't handle a difficult child, you shouldn't have one AT ALL because you our biological child could very well be a difficult child. If you are having difficulty conceiving by all means carry on trying but having IVF and completely excluding the possibility of adopting because you might get a difficult child makes me think you need to reconsider whether you actually want a child at all.

There's much debate here on biological age for prima gravida - does no-one consider mental readiness to bear and bring up a child? I had my own issues to deal with before I could consider taking on the responsibility of someone else's life - I knew it and I waited. I may be an older mummy but I'm certainly a more stable & contented one!

Curiosity, I don't like to single anyone out for criticism but you're way out of line.

i understand what you're saying milamae but to follow up on one point, it surely makes sense that infertile people who have ttc are seen as potential adoption material - they have shown the desire and commitment to have children but that's not the same as saying unwanted children are their responsibility is it? I can understand the pain of ivf having seen several people go thro it, i can understand why they went through it. What i struggle with in certain cases such as my 42 yr old sister and the OP's friend is why some people needlessly wait too long and then put themselves thro the agony and v likely failure of ivf

Anyone know what the rules for adoption are? Do they allow couples who are in the process of getting help for their infertility to start the adoption process?

Curiositykilled, you are still talking nonsense, and very plainly have no conception of quite how "difficult" we may be talking, and no willingness to learn, either. I'm trying to be kind, because you're plainly not bright, but really. Patience has limits.

FIFTY PERCENT BREAK DOWN. And most adoptive parents are incredibly committed, extremely capable people - have to be, to jump through all the hoops. Try googling attachment disorders. It's in no way like having a difficult child of your own, because if it were, half of birth children would be in the care system, too. These poor children have often suffered horrifically; it would be odd were they NOT damaged.

Adoption, when successful, is a fantastic thing. I know that. But it's facile and ignorant to say all people who want kids should go that way, purely on the basis that - if it's just as easy as having a biological child, why haven't YOU done it?

NewPenName, what would you consider 'needlessly waiting too long'? Do you have a cut-off age at which you think women should not try for their own children?

really, 50% of adoptions breakdown?
how awful, esp for the kids, had no idea it was that high.

I heard the other day that some (all?) local authorities set a minimum time of 2 yrs between end of fertility treatment and the adoption process

"Anyone know what the rules for adoption are? Do they allow couples who are in the process of getting help for their infertility to start the adoption process?"

Iirc, no, because (and IMO quite rightly) it;s felt that it would damage an adoption's chances of success if a biological birth is thrown into the mix - a newborn is never a picnic. It also alters the family dynamic. An adoption failing is awful for all parties, and hugely damaging for the child. My understanding is that you are supposed to use contraception, never mind ttc, when seeking to adopt.

Curiosity you really don't know what you're talking about.

I was a teacher when embarking on IVF I was fully aware all children can be difficult (even the Perfect Petes of this world) as I must have taught well into the 100s over the years.

However difficult children are a whole different ball game to children who have suffered years of abuse, I have experienced both so think I was well qualified to make the decision I did.

As I said previously I know I didn't have the mental,personal or financial capabilities to take such cases on.

beanie - when i said needlessly waiting too long that was a specific statement about a family member who was in the position to try sooner but admitted that she didn'[t want to due to £/jobs/house etc and now in her early 40s is finding it difficult. She and her dh are relatively wealthy so practical reasons were not the issue. We have seen her go thro the agonies of failed ivf several times and so yes, i wish she hadn't waited. I'm not talking in general here. However, I don't have a cut-off age but biologically it gets harder in our 30s, much much harder in our 40s. Sad fact with obvious happy exceptions.

beanie - when i said needlessly waiting too long that was a specific statement about a family member who was in the position to try sooner but admitted that she didn'[t want to due to £/jobs/house etc and now in her early 40s is finding it difficult. She and her dh are relatively wealthy so practical reasons were not the issue. We have seen her go thro the agonies of failed ivf several times and so yes, i wish she hadn't waited. She is now heartbroken.
I'm not talking in general here. However, it's not me who sets a cut-off age but biologically it gets harder in our 30s, much much harder in our 40s. Sad fact with obvious happy exceptions.

beanieb - when did I tell anyone they should give up now? I have said ppl should be more aware of the risks in pregnancy and labour increasing with age (because they do), I never said people shouldn't have babies. I disagree with IVF, me, I'm not saying you should, just that I do. Ppl asked me to explain my various opinions and I did.

wannabe - what I am saying is that if you cannot conceive naturally and you want a child you will have it much harder than someone who can conceive. I have already said I think IVF is at least as difficult as adoption and I bet there's not too much difference between the numbers of people who end up with children out of either route either. At some point carrying on trying and paying out loads of money will just prolong the pain. I don't like that people exclude the possibility of adopting because they are afraid the children are difficult.

I think also there isn't a single one of you who knows what I have experienced in my life so whilst I realise that a lot of your comments are coming from hurt I think it is a little naive to just assume I have no experience of the things I'm talking about.

Morloth - I have dcs but am only 25. Fully intend to adopt/foster later in life.

The 50% statistic is for older child adoptions, it's much more successful with little ones, from what I remember. Basically an older child is likely to have suffered terribly before reaching an adoptive parent, and it's not always possible for that person/couple and that child to overcome that harm together. It can reach the stage where the adoption is fracturing the relationships that predated it so badly, it becomes untenable.

There's a stringent process before someone can adopt; these are presumably committed, capable people, and it still is just that difficult. It's not as simple as thinking every kid just needs love, why can't people just adopt instead. If only it were that straightforward.

You haven't told us if your children are adopted curiosity?

curiousity - we haven't all slated you, just gets rather heated on here. where's the op anyway, has she been back?

By curiositykilled Mon 15-Jun-09 20:37:48 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

"Qally - having IVF not being infertile! What I mean is ppl having IVF need to look at why they want a child at all if they are so willing to immediately exclude adoption and are only willing to consider IVF. If you can't handle a difficult child, you shouldn't have one AT ALL because you our biological child could very well be a difficult child. If you are having difficulty conceiving by all means carry on trying but having IVF and completely excluding the possibility of adopting because you might get a difficult child makes me think you need to reconsider whether you actually want a child at all."

i promisedf myself i wouldn't come back to this thread but i had to. you are totally out of line. how dare you, with your perfectly functioning reproductive system and moral obligations lecture women in whose shoes youve never taken 1 step. how dare you make the presumption that couples wish to try IVF because they want a perfect child. and how fucking dare you imply that infertility is there for a reason, we shouldn't mess with what god has chosen not to give us. why not adopt?

why didnt you adopt? a question that you have repeatedly avoided. is it because you managed to get pg, carry a child and give birth to live baby? or was it because when you threw away the pill you were too selfish to consider the imperfect children who need homes.

be a dear, answer the question, then fuck off back to your ivory tower.

curiositykilled i see you are 25. you sound like a small child who thinks that 40 is ancient. in 15 years time i hope you remember what you said here and feel ashamed.

in fact i think it'll happen sooner than that. you are being foolish and simplistic.

i'm surprised at all the anti-OP posts. isn't it obvious that if a woman starts ttc at 41 it just might not happen at all (this is assuming that she hasn't been ttc before , mind you in that case why not start IVF earlier if they had the cash?)?

i know how BAD it is to lose babies and to despair of ever becoming a mother, but i think that it's fair enough for the OP to have been a bit envious of her friend's former lifestyle and now to be thinking 'well didn't you SEE that it might have consequences?' fair dos, i think, so long as she doesn't say it out loud. plenty of friendships don't survive infertility, this might just not be a keeper.