4-year old excluded of Reception class for biting 3 weeks after starting school... Anyone experienced the same???

[brette]

Hello,

My son is 4 and started reception 3 weeks ago after 12 months in nursery. In nursery, he had trouble settling in but after a while and a lot of patience and encouragement from the dedicated staff, settled in very nicely... with the occasional to frequent bitings. Never in a "malicious" offensive way, more as a "defence"/compulsive/impulsive way when his space is being invaded. Very hard and stressdul for everyone involved (the bitten, the biter, all parents...) But they got it under control after a lot of praising and generally speaking a gentle and psychological approach. He still has to be assessed to see if there's anything related to sensorial issues. He's the youngest of the class, loves school and is extremely bright.
An Early Intervention team got involved, he was observed, the conclusion was there wasn't anything "wrong" with him, many reports were written and before he went to Reception, we had a meeting with the new school child therapist, the Early Year Intervention team therapist, the nursery staff, etc... so that the transition to school would be smooth.

First day at school, the headteacher tells me: "I understand your son has special needs" ...
Second day at school, the teacher tells me: "He bit a child today, is it something he's done before?" I told her nicely to read the report we had taken so much time to make specially for her...
Two weeks later, he bit a child and the child bled. Very shocking and inacceptable. The head called me and asked me to collect him to "punish" him and as he was a danger to other kids. On collecting him, I saw the child therapist of the school who admitted they hadn't been any communication of reports between the nursery and the school. That she had just spoken to the nursery therapist and that she had a better picture of the situation. I said I was surprised they didn't get any of the reports since their whole point was to avoid this very confusion...
And now all the head is telling me is "This behaviour has to stop..." Err, we all agree on that, if we knew how to, we would...

Anyone has experienced something similar?

Sorry very long post, but I feel let down and angry by the whole situation.

FWIW ds1 often is provoked into hitting; it dosn't on any planet make it OK but he can't manage the pressures due yto hid ASD.

brette he's been observed I know and I dont like typing this esp as second time in one day but really there are flags for sn here- esp his specific asreas of brightness. I am not an expertand hope to God I am way off but it wouldn't hurt to familiarise yourself with the triad of impairments: mildest end Aspergers is often not diagnosed until several years older than your son.

If that is the case then no amount of take a toy away will work; it just doesn't.

Regardless of whether he ahs any unerlying sn, I would suggest a look at the book dont shoot the dog which looks like a dog training book but as you can see from the amazon preview is not. Its about using techniques to get rid of problem behhaviours, child rearing experts recommend it.

My point is that you denied having ever used the word provoked. When you clearly did.

My other point is that you repeatedly talked about how you 'talk' to him - nothing about sanctions or punishments. Yet when it's suggested that such sanctions or punishments may be useful tactic 'Voila - you've tried all of those....'

Happy to clarify anything else ? But perhaps your time would be better spent searching for some of those resources in dealing with challenging behaviour I mentioned earlier. You are obviously not gaining 'anything' from this discussion and I would suggest drawing up your own action plan to use in conjunction with the school with very clear steps which should be taken when the next incident occurs.

sassy repeat after me: you do not get the whole picture from a few posts on mumsnet...

sorry but as a reception teacher you cannot have children biting! i understand how you must feel - with a class of 30 it is hard to give the 1;2 guidance some children need to settle in.
It is a tricky one.

SASSYBEAST - don't want to hijack but I have started another thread for you. Can you have a look at it for me please?

rusmum you are quite right but also as a teacher you surely know that communication and team work between home and school is the key? And also how hard it is not just for the kids (brette a tip- when my DS1 has 'an incident' I always get him to make a sorry card for the child: its a very visible and obvious sign for the parent and child that you are trying to get on top of it and take the situation seriously- that matters)but the aprent of the biter?

There is a thread on Mn where I was reduced to a wreck after being really nastily verbally attacked by a child DS1 was supposed to have hurt (turned out it had been an accident anyway) and there are times when I am too scared to go to school alone, if say I know ds1 has had a particualrly challenging few days. So all those [oeple who say they'd want words with the Mum- if you think Mum isn't very upset and aware already you are having a laugh! I've lived through enough crap: a dh who almost died, tewo of my kids being diagnosed with autism- and the only thing I can't deal with is the aggression and the hopelessness of it all, and I feel only pity for anyone stuck in the same situation.

Can I also ask what you all think should be done? ALl these out of class suggestions- well I get that about ds1 but you know what, Special Needs Units aren't like mainstream education; you can't just put yur name on a waiting list. many kids don't meet the criteria and my ds1 doesn't. If school comes to me and says we're sorryt but he needs this or that lpacement- I will say yes, but until they do I cannot get him in a more 'suitable' school. There seems to be a widespread misinformation that parents choose not to opt for SN Units; my experience is that very often indeed that is not the case.

The level of hypocrisy on this forum never fails to astonish me. About a year ago, a woman posted a message on here asking whether she thought she should be made to pay for a window that her son had broken at his nursery. He'd had a tantrum and hurled a toy train across the room, smashing the window. He was four.

Nearly every person who responded was outraged - by the nursery's audacity to expect this woman to pay for the broken window! Apparently it was 'developmentally normal' for a child of four (a mere 'toddler') to have tantrums of this nature, and to hurl toys and break windows. I tried to argue that actually, no it wasn't normal, and that in a nursery setting, it was extremely dangerous for a child to behave like this (imagine if the toy had hit another child in the head instead of hitting the window) and I was literally crucified by the holier than thou brigade. As pondscum who knew nothing about child development (I own three nurseries), my comments were written off as 'vile', 'ignorant', 'highly offensive' and (of course) 'deeply hurtful'. One hysterical poster even suggested finding out the locations of my nurseries out of 'concern' for the children there!

Because this kid bites however (which is unlikely to kill anyone, unless of course you're unfortunate enough to live in South London), it's considered fair game to paint the poor little sod as the spawn of Satan. It's unbelieveable!

Take no notice, OP. They're all mad and deeply deeply contradictory.

I think that a child should be excluded from primary school if:

1. They bite someone hard enough to draw blood.

1. They throw an object hard enough to smash a window.

Having googled some primary school behaviour policies, this does not seem to be a mad or wild opinion; it reflects what many schools consider to be dangerous.

Maybe the people on the thread a year ago were different to the ones on now.

I still have sympathy for the OP, and think the school should have read the documents. But I don't see why them having read the documents would have stopped the exclusion.

Where should they go milly? every child is entitled to an education (Human Rights Bill) and there are not enough special unit places.

Look, a 4 year old who bites does not belong in a special unit.

Is this thread even for real?

Brette, I really feel for you. And Duchesse I couldn't agree with you more about the so-called perfect kids and their deluded blinkered parents. All the people who have said they'd be 'horrified' if their child was bitten by another 4 year old. Really? Actually properly horrified? I prefer to reserved those kind of emotions for rapes and murders and genocides. Little kids bite one another all the time. It's unpleasant and upsetting when your child is on the receiving end but hardly horrifying or unusual. The worst thing is when a parent is totally oblivious or in denial, or has an arrogant 'so what?' attitude when their child is being anti-social. Clearly that is not the case here. Brette is painfully aware of her son's issues, and is doing everything she can to understand, and deal with it. She may seem to some of you to be clutching at straws in offering reasons for why he does this but how many of us could honestly say that we wouldn't be looking for reasons, not to excuse or justify, merely to understand our own kids' less than perfect habits?
My DS2 has a boy in his class (he's 13) who has real anger management/emotional issues and the others freely admit to winding him up as they regard the resulting 'wobbly' as some form of entertainment, so I agree that it is in children's nature to goad unusual or vulnerable kids. Having said all that, whilst I would not condone excluding such a young child, it does sound as if everyone needed a bit of space for a day or two.

Brette, I have to be honest, the more you talked about your son the more I was thinking 'Aspergers'. Yes I know some people have pointed out that we are not Educational Psychologists, (and how dare we voice such opinions when we are not qualified?) but then again I'm not offering a formal diagnosis. It doesn't mean we can't tactfully suggest that you investigate it. After all, we'd do the same if we recognised the signs of for asthma, right? Having said that, he's still so young, it may be a just an uncontrollable impulse, as a reaction to stress, frustration and social immaturity.

We had a boy my son's age at Mums and Tots who was an absolute nightmare because of impulsive violent behaviour from the age of about 2. No-one could bear him; I used to tense up when ever he went near my son, and as the mother of three robust noisy boys I'm not generally neurotic about these things! It transpired that he had serious speech and co-ordination problems and he ended up going to a special school for the first two terms of reception to get intensive help with this. He arrived back in mainstream school for the last term of reception, a changed boy. He could talk and express himself, he was a happy little chap and VERY bright. He became my son's best friend and was a pleasure to be with. I hope that gives you hope.

Although your little boy is clever it does sound as though he may not be ready socially for full time school. I wouldn't worry about holding him back academically - if he's as bright as you say then another term is hardly going to make any difference in the great scheme of things, (unless, of course, you are more pushy than you let on )and a bit of extra time could be of great social and emotional benefit to him.
You could use that time to really get to the bottom of what's eating him. Good luck.

CTPDC

I meant for the rest of the school day; I did not mean they should never be allowed back. Sorry, I could have made that clearer in my post.

Even if there were more units I would not suggest that the OP's child would benefit from going to one!

TiggyR

I agree that once a kid is known to have an issue, other children will wind them up. There was a girl in my dd's class and she did hit other children frequently. But there were also a lot of occasions (according to my dd) where children would say the girl had hit them, and she hadn't done anything. They were believed and the girl was told off. There was no reason for the girl to respond to attempts to improve her behaviour because she was being told off even when she had done nothing.

I think that happens a lot, and it bothers my children a lot more than the girl with SN; the injustice of group behaviour is very scary.

Sorry as this has gone a bit off topic.

I interpreted MillyR's post to mean exclusion as in how the OP's son was excluded - i.e. only for half a day or so. Apologies if I got that wrong.

Peachy, I'm confused as to where your (self-confessed) rant on Special Units came from. I think you were the first person on this thread to talk about them? Brette's son has been assessed and while I agree that may not mean he isn't SN, so far he hasn't been diagnosed as such. So I and probably others were commenting on that basis, because it's not for us to diagnose something like that. And a poster did get villified by others on here for suggesting autism.

Bobbysmum How can you possibly say many of the posters on here are mad and deeply deeply contradictory based on responses from OTHER PEOPLE on a different thread at a different time?

Rant implies going off on a tangent over something that gets my goat; thats where the SNU thing comes from. BUT also, you get people saying ah yes boot them out, exclude them, etc- where do they go?

maybe another school and if that happens then to these awful behavioural units- a form of SNU.

Oh and the person who said people got villified for saying autism; unless familiar with DSV5 (or whatever it is) it would be the most mild AS not full asd- and ifanyone on any thread on MN ever says 'maybe they have sn' the poster gets villified. its The Rules. You're not allowed to show thought or strategy, only jump on a bandwagon.

Brette, I am a mum of an ex-bitter. I tried everything, nothing work and at last he grew out of it, thanks God. He also drew blood of a couple of children (older, thankfully they didn´t make a fuss). I had to stop going to playgroups and couldn´t take my eyes of him, etc. At 4, he is now "cured". But according to MIL, DH who was a bitter too, grew out of it only at 5. I send you my best wishes, I cannot see anything wrong in what you are doing.

Brette - what an awful time you have had of it tonight, I didn't realise it was all still kicking off. It's a shame people don't read the whole thread before wading in Mind you, even if they have I doubt they'd be able to follow it, as they don't seem to be able to follow the little bit they have been involved in . Take a little comfort out of the fact that your DS will grow out of biting - they will not grow out of being dim, narrow minded and pathetic!

Hang in there

Quite agree ChippingIn. For your sake Brette, I hope you step away from this thread now. There are some posters who are astounding in their views and I'm sure that can't be helping. You're doing all the right things.
Good luck.

I'm and @ this thread.

Sadly, becuase brette chose to post in the AIBU topic she has taken a beating.

I imagine brette is feeling angnry and let down by Mumsnet now.

This thread really has made be bloody

Huggs to brette - I know how upsetting and confusing it is when your child is excluded from school- Hang in there; you seem like a fabulous, intlligent mum.

Ditto.