To be highly irritated about the Twin thread - school trip fees

[DietDisaster]

I can't understand how people think that having two children close together has a similar financial impact as having twins (or higher multiples) .

As a mum of dearly loved DTs, this makes me annoyed because parents of twins have to buy two lots of baby equipment (double pram, two cots, highchairs, nappies!!) at the same time and as they grow nothing can be passed down. Also have to pay two lots of childcare/nursery fees, when they want to do activities they can only do them if you can afford to pay twice (mine have to do exactly the same things as I'm not having either of them miss out). When they start school, two lots of uniform, coats, shoes not to mention trips, then there's beds, larger car, university fees etc, etc.

At least parents who have kids close together can reuse a lot of stuff and anyway, it is their CHOICE to have them close together, you have no choice over whether you have twins and I don't believe that anyone who decides to get pregnant thinks 'oh, better wait until I'm sure I can afford 2 in case I have twins'. People who have children close together can plan to space out their children if they can't afford it.

Therefore, I think schools should help out parents of twins, triplets etc and they should not have to pay the same as singletons!!

Yes, I agree that with no 1 - you do get time with them but after 1 there is no time for sole attention - well not in my case - they were both pre-school age.

(i think we have gone waay off topic, but never mind)

Yes i realise that, but there are some things you just have to learn for yourself! If i had had DD3 sooner i would have had the same problem, but we left an age gap of 9 years so we expected it would be much calmer! We never even thought about number 3 until the twins were 6!(Extra strength condoms at the ready!)

I have a 16mth gap between my two, and that did mean for all major baby requirements (bottles, cloth nappies, babygrows, vests, etc etc) things got handed directly from ds to dd, as it would for all but the shortest gap, which then in effect become very similar to having twins. Once they were bigger less handing down happened (but dd still wore ds's school shirts and sweatshirts) and now they are pretty much the same size, none.

There are lots of advantages to having them close together, once you get past the incredibly hard work of the first year or two, and yes it is handy for childcare arrangements, although a nanny is the only childcare option that is the same price for one or a multiple of children (and it is a minority option, as it is the most expensive).

However the issue of spacing out your costs is a valid one. Over the childhood of two children close or twins, and two children further apart, the costs probably are quite similar outside of the first couple of years. But the high costs always come together as opposed to being spread out. That means that some twins will miss out, where parents could afford the cost over a period of time, but not all together. Then the parents get to choose if one twin or sibling loses out, or if they both do.

I have twins and there are 2 things irritating me about this thread 1) that there seems to be a view that multiple discounts are everywhere - I think this is a red herring - apart from 5% of (expensive brands of) shoes I have never come across any discounts (and wouldn't expect to) and 2) that IVF twins are somehow different and less deserving of any financial help on offer.

I agree wholeheartedly that families should receive help on a means tested basis and am actually shocked that school trips can be so expensive and therefore socially divisive.

Not sure that adds anything new, but just needed to get it off my chest .

twins.....not a choice really is it!

is there really a high number of people who hand on heart dib dib scratch yer fanny, can say that you had two children close together despite using all means available to you to not become pregnant? i am sure that there are those out there who simultaneously had a coil, implant, double bagged and were on the pill and STILL became pregnant, but stats and chances probably are that it was probably a wonderful surprise due to a night of delightful stupidity.

if so is kinda hold your hands up time and say ' fair cop guvnor' taking responsability through either poor planning or choice

that isn't the same as having twins.

and...no its bloody not the same having them 9 , 10 ,11,12 months apart. something my MIL levells at me frequently.

and i never got a twin discount in my LIFE for anything.

I agree. dd was an accident (I had just stopped bfing ds), but we knew the possibility was there. I think close in age has some similarities, but I am sure that I an not alone in feeling relieved at both my scans that there was only one heartbeat (twins run in my family, so it was always in the back of my mind).

it really doesn't have some similarities IMO the emotional and physical drain of having two newborns and GIVING BIRTH to two.

i'm not trying to set up a pissing contest with singletons - becuase there are unlimited add ons that any parent can give such as existing children - giving birth to twins again, make it triplets - disabled etc.

but as a mother of twins i can't understand the difficulties a triplet mum has - i find it ever so slightly gaulling when someone says they had children close together and compares it to twins - cos its just not the same

think simple nappies feeding. teething, sleeping.

without adding different children.illnesses to the mix

Sorry it was subsidy the OP felt entitled to. Where should the government take this money from? Hospitals? special needs support in schools? care in old age?

Ah but Custy that's sheer drudge which I wouldn't even begin to disagree with, rather than financial problems which is what OP is talking about.

But I am a rare freak who did assume she might have twins and factor that in (mind, Nan had a few sets of twins in her lot, and there are plenty on Mum;s side also so really was a possibility- and they think ds1 was a lost twin scenario)

In terms of work I cn't even begin to imagine the imapct of a multiple birth. Esp. as age increases likelihood of twins, and I have found having ds4 harder that way than the ones I had in my twenties.

It's not a competition is it?

And as has been pointed out, there are so many variable... a couple with a planned pregnancy resulting in one set of twins, are probably going to be less financially stuffed that a family with four under-fours for instance.

I don't think anyone anywhere has said IVF twins are in any way 'less deserving'- people have just responded to the point made at the start of the thread which suggested that no one ever has any control over having twins. I know no one ever knows for certain, but the fact is that the huge increase in twins in recent years is directly as a result of IVF. If you are having two eggs implanted, then you know that there is an increased risk of twins! The overall success rate for IVF may not be huge, but the fact is, there is an increased chance. That;s not the same as saying anyone is 'less deserving' - it's just stating a fact!

The OP was talking specifically about finance, and there really can't be any justification for subsidising parents who have twins any more than anyone else.

I think that's the whole point deepinlaundry - we each have our own experience and can't really put ourselves in anothers shoes.

I had a 14 month old when my dc3 arrived, but as the 14 month old had been very prem, she was probably around 8/9 months developmentally - a long way off walking etc. And then there was the 3 year old too. A good friend of mine had twins, and she used to look at me with my lot and tell me she thought I had it harder, but I used to think she had it harder! Which goes to show it's all subjective really!

Two of my aunts had twins, both at the end of their family. One had a two year old and a four year old when the twins were born, the other had a toddler and two teenagers. I was little when the first set were born, so I've only heard stories, but I certainly remember my other aunt being absolutely exhausted for years. I suspect that it is totally dependent on how well you feel as a mum, how much support you have, your financial position, the temperament of the babies and that of your other children. There are pros and cons of every family scenario, and perhaps it is best that (with a few exceptions) we don't get to pick and choose how we do it.

However, two close together certainly can give you a period of two babies waking in the night, two babies in nappies, two toddlers running in either direction etc. I just think the overlap (in general) is smaller, so whilst ds was in nappies for a good part of the time that dd was, there was also a year or so when he wasn't. So I think that having two together gives some insight into what it would be like having twins. Now my children are long beyond babyhood I am often asked if they are twins, and I think that they have many of the advantages (close relationship, similar developmental age etc) but we don't have the issues from them being in the same year at school.

I am sure twin pregnancies are much harder for most people. But I'm not sure that for me having two c-sections close together, would have been much better than having one. However that's all pretty academic isn't it? We have what we have (luckily).

Violet I really don't think you really know the ins and outs of IVF.

I had 3 embryos implanted. They were the only 3 that survived a year of freezing and de-frosting, my only 3 left and all were extremely ropey ie little chance of making it implanted let alone being re-frozen. All the rest of my 36 eggs that were taken out either hadn't fertilized or had perished.

We were desperate. It was last chance saloon as it was too dangerous to for me to have IVF again and we had no money left after 7 years ttc.

What would you do? I feel I had no choice and the chances of any making it were extremely slim let alone twins. This is why we were permitted to have 3 implanted. The consultants said there was little chance of a pregnancy. Where was my choice in having twins? I had embryos I was resposnsible for and had to give the best chance of survival.

Most women doing IVF have had years of attempts,the chances of conceiving one baby is very small. There is this misconception with IVF that you just pay your money and bang you get a baby. It really doesn't work like that. Most of us do several unsuccessful cycles before we conceive. You don't think each cycle "Oo I might get twins"

Deepinlaundry I had 3 under 18 months. Believe me having 2 the same age is way harder. I now childmind and have a variety of ages under 6,it's a doddle compared to twins. The older ones help and are less needy.

I do wonder if there is a bit of a jealousy factor in all this(god knows why). It's strange but in RL people we know always acknowledge the extra difficulties and cost involved with twins. I'm guessing this is because they actually see the reality.

But you chose your situation,multiple mums don't.

I agree with you deepinlaundry.

Don't know you think jealousy is a factor Mila. Of the people I know with twins - two couples who conceived naturally, and two by IVF, the ones who conceived naturally told me that although they of course love their children dearly, they wouldn't wish twins on anyone, that it was hard work, and they also felt slightly cheated by only going through the whole baby thing once. Of the ones who conceived through IVF, I think they were just very very thankful to have children at all, in the face of fertility problems.
I think most people who conceive naturally just feel incredibly thankful and not remotely jealous of the financial and emotional cost of IVF!

And I certainly didn't choose the 14 month age gap between two of my children! I'm not mad!

deepinlaundry - you say its not a competition yet you seem determined to make it one. milamae has the experience of 3 under 18 months which leave me in total awe of her!
I only have twins - the experience was enough to make me not want more so I can't compare, but I do know I planned very carefully when to get pg, conceived naturally within a couple of weeks of starting to try, then spent several weeks in shock when I found it was twins - it simply wasn't something I had anticipated and there is no way that is comparable to choosing to have 2 dc, no matter how cloase in age they may be, never mind the cost, its a shock

Deepinlaundry no need for sarcasm. My sister and bfriend both have nat twins,mine as I said are IVF. All 3 of us along with a lot of other twin mums I know have struggled in ways non twin mums just wouldn't ever understand. In the early days there is actually very little to enjoy.Why shouldn't we acknowledge that,it isn't healthy to find things hard and just pretend everything is peachy.

Doesn't mean we don't all love them dearly.

Oh for goodness sake! Having children is hard work, end of! And some babies are grizzly and difficult, and some are placid and easy going. And some parents take things in their stride and some make a mountain out of it!
You just can't compare!

For example, if you have one set of twins, you are a SAHM, have family locally to help out and a cleaner, then you probably have it a damn sight easier than a couple who both work full time, have 3 under threes and do all the housework themselves!

There are just so many variables!

To go back to the original point (which seems to have got lost along the wayside) the OP seemed to think that having twins per se was a reason for schools (ie other parents) to subsidise you. Which is clearly a pile of nonsense, for the reasons described above. Many people struggle, with various numbers of kids.

Duckyfuzz my sister was the same she only budgeted financially and emotionally for 1 baby(she wasn't having any more). Her egg split, having seen my struggle it took her a while to come to terms with the pregnancy.

She adores them now but was in shock for a while too.

She is going back to work now and her dp has had to cut the days he works as they can't afford 2 lots of fulltime nursery fees.

As has been said before parents of several different age dc chose to have them,will have budgeted accordingly.Multiple parents don't that is the difference.