to expect my friends 2y 10mth old dd not to scream every time she doesn't get what she wants?

[mytetherisending]

Have just had my friend with 2 dcs over this am for lunch and have had to put up with her dd who is the same age as mine screaming blue murder when she had to share/take turns/eat lunch/ been told no toys on the table Am I expecting too much in that I at least expect her to apply consequences when her dd does this i.e. time out etc. She just kept repeating 'no darling, don't do that' 'no darling, you have to share don't you' in a baby voice. This approach certainly isn't working for her.

I am because toward the end of the morning my dd who doesn't scream was trying to copy her, for which she got sent to time out.

YABU and expecting to much of a 2.10 month old.

Snowleopard - well put.

I agree with Snowleopard. I have seen a number of times parents who seem terrified of incurring their childrens' wrath by enforcing any kind of boundary with them. The children scream, the parents says "no", the children scream more - the parents give in...
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what that will do and what lesson the child is being taught.

The boundaries/rules themselves are fairly irrelevant except when they involve other children/other people's property. It is their existence and the consistency of their enforcement that teaches children the valuable lesson that - they are loved and valued - but they are not in charge.

Its not that i don't think you care about her - i don't know you so would not make that assumption. I just think that you feel so negatively towards her daughters behaviour (and that your friend isn't dealing with it effectively) that your relationship is in danger, so maybe best to restrict your friendship to when you are not around each others children.

You ask how to show support - well, personally (and this is just me) I would show support by accepting the way she parents. If she asks how she can change her dd's behaviour then i would offer words of wisdom, (if they can be called that) all the while remembering that everyone parents differently and no one method is right or wrong. I stand by what i said in that you're not showing empathy - you believe your way to be right and whilst i'm not suggesting for a minute that its not, i am saying that there are a million 'right' ways to do things.

I don't advocate letting children run wild btw. But i do advocate picking my battles.

I don't know, I have sympathy for the OP and also for all the mums who have children at an exuberant / difficult age.

All children go through phases of testing their carers limits and 'look for trouble' to see what will happen, IYKWIM.

I do think the OP has a problem with her friend. it seems to me that the Op wants her friend to lay some boundaries for her DD, and that by saying yes dear yes dear isn't having any effect (and it isn't).

FWIW I had a SIL (now X-SIL) who just kept saying 'oh don't do that' 1000x a day to her DD, and she would never follow through on any disciplining consequences, and her DD used to ramp up that bad behaviour to get attention. So I do understand how upsetting it can be if it seems that the child has no boundaries or discipline being set for her.

For me, I didn't expect very much from my DD when she was that age, but I would expect her to use her inside voice when inside and to share and be nice when we were with others.

If she was screeching, we used to leave. EVERY TIME. And soon DD learned that screeching was not acceptable. She didn't do it much - just to see what would happen as an experiment. So I was very consistent with the consequences.

BTW if we were going somewhere that was restrictive socially, like a visit or a restaurant, we used to go first to the playground / park and let off steam - fair's fair after all. hth

"The boundaries/rules themselves are fairly irrelevant except when they involve other children/other people's property. It is their existence and the consistency of their enforcement that teaches children the valuable lesson that - they are loved and valued - but they are not in charge."

I think that is possibly the most sensible thing I have ever read on mumsnet.

Very sensible post turniphead.

zazen I think if my friend had done the same as you with her dd she would never have got to this point. I used time out as an example of discipline not as the only way iyswim. Removing is probably the best way if you are out. The thing that I find incredible is that my friend was a nanny for 2yrs .

Um, I'd guess she's stressed out by your sucking-lemons face everytime her dd moves or speaks! Why on earth is toys on the table this terrible offence? Knowing your so-called friend is feeling so superior and thinks you and your child is crap is so stressful and upsetting. And 'helpful' suggestions as to how she can make her child more like your perfect specimen won't help. Just leave her alone. It's not like it's harming you in any way.
I think time out is stupid. A sense of humour and love is much more effective.

I don't think the OP is saying that Toys on the table is a "terrible offence". She is just saying that it's one of the things she has as a house rule, as it prevents her child from being distracted at mealtimes. I do the same with my ds. It's then very difficult to allow visitors to have toys on the table when your dc doesn't, as they (understandably) can't see why it's ok for visitors to have them but not themselves.

Hence, house rules, or when in Rome, do as the Romans do. I expect with this sort of thing that other people fit in with my house rules and I will fit in with theirs (even if it is not what I would choose myself).

Mabanana in what way is teaching my child its acceptable to have toys on the table to play with, when mealtimes are for eating, is a good idea (not to mention the mould growing on said toys when the food gets on them, I don't realise and my baby starts chewing it).
In what way is it good for my dd to get sore ears from the constant screeching.
In what way is it good for me to end up with a banging headache from it.
Why is it not harming my dd when she has consequences for copying my friends dd. Children like to feel fairly treated, by her having consequences and my friends dd not having them it is undermining my parenting and implying that I am the bad guy in my house.
How is it good for an already fussy eater to be allowed to play at the table rather than eat her meal, especially when she is very petite for her age

I didn't pull any sucking lemons faces but tbh if she did see that then maybe it might prompt her to actually do something proactive about it, instead of making endless excuses for their behaviour

SMTB you have hit the nail on the head and we have that rule for the same reason as you, as well as a cleanliness point i.e. not having mouldy food on them, especially as the little dd2 chews them.

MTIR - do you value the friendship?can you put parenting styles aside and see each other as adult's no children

you mention mum passive personality
lack of confidence
is this solely post child?

what makes you think her child has hearing delay and/or speech delay?what have you observed?

I know another 2 children who screeched endlessly and who were constantly frustrated, both had speech impairments. Her speech is still very unclear (unfortunately highlighted more because dd1s is well above her age) I caught very few words only being able to make things out because of context and pointing iyswim It has improved in the last few months though so I haven't given it any more thought tbh.

has she had all the usual paed test's audiology etc

I know she has had depression in the past before having children and she says that she has down moments but is able to pull herself out of it. She says that she wasn't lacking confidence before children but seems to have lost lots of confidence since having them

No, I don't think this has even crossed her mind and I haven't mentioned it because her dds speech has improved in the last few months.

She has probably had the 6wk test, however, glue ear can cause deafness later so maybe she should get it checked again

maybe now you are approaching the nub of it.if one is low or self esteem impaired hardly surprising she isnt most assertive parent going

could your dp's watch the children offer her some quality adult time.were she wont necessarily feel pressured as a mum

maybe you inadvertently make her feel like a failure - with your oppositional styles

Yes, I feel really awful for not thinking more deeply about what she said earlier in the week. I might see if we could do something away from the children. With the hecticness this morning we really couldn't chat so it was difficult. She is also smoking more than she did (not judging as I also smoke, I have just noticed, probably because she is stressed )

I think I have been too harsh in my approach.
Fundamentally I think her dds behaviour is unacceptable but this thread (especially the last few posts) have made me think outside the box.

perhaps you are observing something symptomatic of a deeper malaise she has. do encourage further paed investigative tests eg SALT,audiology, GP, etc

but if she is a friend maybe accept you have different styles.
dont jeopardise friendship
she might need you

I think there are two totally different issues at stake here.

One is stopping bad behaviour. I think I was fairly tough on this. My children did not get away with breaking things, hurting people or taking things they were not supposed to have - I would always be there to stop them.

The other is tantrums and temper. Being firm about matters such as those above, did not mean that I could actually stop dd from being the kind of child who would work herself into a tantrum pretty well every day. This was nothing to do with not setting consistent boundaries: I never gave way and let her have anything because of a tantrum. It was to do with her being an extremely reactive child. Short of strangling her, I don't see how I could have stopped it. I don't think I was a feeble or gormless parent- my dcs have not grown into thugs or yobs; in fact, all their school reports have emphasised their good manners- but I could not stop hysteria through punishment; it doesn't work like that if you have a child who is hysterically inclined. Ds on the other hand, who was brought up in the same way, was a placid little soul.

If I had been your guest, I would probably have gone home though, to spare your ears. I spent a lot of time leaving early out of consideration for other people.

ScottishMummy thanks for your wise words and questions. At last I can see the woods for the trees. I will try to broach the subject and perhaps it might shed some light on the behaviour.

I have to go to bed, so goodnight