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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To get slightly fed up with post's about 'gifted and talented' children

268 replies

MrsMertle · 03/10/2008 15:58

because I think some of them are just an excuse for parents to show off, when what they really want to say is "look at my DC, they are so much cleverer than yours!!"

OP posts:
Blandmum · 05/10/2008 18:53

Piffle, sadly your son has real problems, that need real solutions.

Most kids on the G and T regester are not in this awful situation. Not that this makes your ds's situation any better yto deal with....

mabanana · 05/10/2008 20:10

You see, I am not at all unsympathetic. Depression, other mental health problems and unemployment are absolutely epidemic in adults with Aspergers, partly because so many are painfully lonely and cannot reach out to others effectively. I worry about it constantly. But I see those issues as totally separate to cleverness. You can be super clever and confident and popular and charismatic etc My ds is clever (not a genius like Piffle's ds) but that's not a problem. His social issues are - even though he's doing really well considering his Aspergers.

Reallytired · 05/10/2008 20:42

I think that mental health issues are a reason for extensive support and funding. The question is how best a school can help and whether its the realm of the NHS rather than education.

As I said before being on the SEN register and gifted and talented are not mutually exclusive.

Piffle · 05/10/2008 20:53

I just get overwraught and having Been through the "why her" with dd as a baby I have had the same thoughts about ds1 which I consider low mothering moments. This is why a detect similarities, I know this is insensitive to some facing much more testing SN situations.

Ds1 has accessed superb mental health support through school and this I can say has been invaluable to him as well as an online forum I found through... The mumsnet G&T topic!

Since finding good online friends he is much better as he has somewhere he is respected and accepted.

But back to the topic

The system is shit...

cory · 05/10/2008 21:54

"I passed my time by counting the spots on the tiles on the ceiling."

I don't get this. Why would anyone want to do this? Surely being gifted is no reason why you can't spend your leisure time in the classroom planning a novel, or working out maths problems you have memorised beforehand, or revising the foreign language you are learning in your spare time, or planning some research for after school? Are all gifted children this helpless? I may not have been truly gifted, but barring the maths problems I remember doing all of the above. Nobody told me that being ahead of the other children at school was a reason to feel sorry for myself: rather my parents kept emphasising to me how lucky it was that there were so many interesting things to discover.

Lots of interesting thoughts have come out of this thread- one that is particularly refreshing is the emphasis by some posters on the positive side of giftedness. The fun of discussing something, finding out new things, being in the company of somebody who stretches your horizons.

This does not imply a lack of sympathy with those children who are unfortunate enough to suffer from mental health issues.

mabanana · 05/10/2008 22:00

re Cory's post, I heard a trail for Desert Island Discs today,with the stellar opera director David McVicar, which said as a child he didn't really get on with school, but spent all his time imagining new stagings for The Magic Flute. Tarantino said he used to think up movie storylines all day long. My dd said, 'I'm bored!' the other day, and I realised ds never, ever says that. And I asked him why and he said, 'when things are boring I just make up stories and films in my head'.

avenanap · 05/10/2008 22:21

It's easy for some children who had the support at home and school. But what about the ones that don't? The ones that are told not to bother asking questions or told they don't need to learn something new. What about the ones that live in a house with no books and don't have access to a library? Or the ones that don't have access to the theatre or museums? Have you ever been in a class where you have the piss taken out of you because you've answered a question? I've never claimed to be gifted. I acknowledge that my education was harmed by being with other children that didn't want to learn. You do get to a point where the fight in you just stops and you give up. Yes, I sat there waiting for the next lesson because I had nothing else to do. I also daydreamed. When you go to a school like this and you have a family that is a tad on the disfunctional side then you either rebel and fight to get to where you want to go or you sit back and bide your time. I sat back because it was the best option at the time. Research/writing/extra study/foreign languages/reading etc wasn't availiable, there wasn't anything. I wasn't even allowed to watch TV except for the soaps. My dad would moan if it was anything he couldn't understand, which was alot as he was drunk after 9pm! I would have loved supportive parents but I didn't have this. You shouldn't assume that these are availiable for everybody. Being ahead at the school I attended made you more likely to be bullied so I kept quiet like children have before me and children are probably still doing now. I don't see keeping your head down as feeling sorry for yourself.

cory · 05/10/2008 22:38

I do agree with you Avenap. I am not blaming any child who ends up like you because they have never had any support. Of course not.

But a lot of the time Mumsnetters are posting about their own children. 'Poor X he will get so bored because the teacher isn't stimulating him' or 'because the other children are so far below him'. These people are not saying 'Poor X, we are such a dysfunctional family and none of us are interested in supporting him at home.' They are assuming that the responsibility lies elsewhere.

It is always assumed that if the school does not offer sufficient stimulation, there is nothing left for anyone else (whether the parents or the child) to do. And that is where I don't agree. I think as a parent you can do masses. And if you have parents with a positive attitude, then you may well end up interested enough to do quite a bit for yourself.

P.S. I too went to the kind of school where you got bullied for answering questions. I was bullied for many years. For that and because we didn't have a TV. And because I was ugly and had a squint. But they couldn't get at my dreams.

avenanap · 05/10/2008 22:44

I always wanted to be a doctor but have never had the confidence to try hard for it. I'm working on that though.

It really does depend on the encouragement you get though. I was told by my dad to leave school at 15 and get a job, they never helped with homework etc so the positive attitude was never there. I didn't know that there were other schools I could go to instead. I thought I was stuck because no one ever told me. I should have asked, I see that now.

It takes a village to raise a child. It's not down to the school, it's down to everyone.

cory · 05/10/2008 22:45

Sorry, badly phrased, 'ends up like you' sounds horrible- like there was something wrong with you now. I only meant, that ends up having their education harmed.

avenanap · 05/10/2008 22:52

It's not just the eduation that is harmed, it's the confidence and self esteem. The effects of having an education harmed by others lasts for years. I still find it difficult to believe in myself and motivate myself to do things. I bet others who have been in this situation have the same problem.

SaintRiven · 06/10/2008 08:37

I was bullied non-stop for being the 'clever' child. So I stopped trying.
Its partly why I home educated. That an schools just not being able to cater for everyone.

pagwatch · 06/10/2008 08:50

Oh God I remember being so far ahead at school and being bored but it never bothered me until I tried to help a girl next to me. My teacher caught me and made me stand on the table telling everyone in my class " look at Pag - she thinks she is so much better than you - so much cleveer than you" I still get so embaressed when i think about it.
I pretty quickly learnt to hide my light under a bushel.
I do remember one of her attacks on me backfiring - she had been goading me again and decided to take me down a peg by doing a pag vs the whole class quiz - but I won
Such a bitch.
I had some good teachers later but the endless bullying eventually took its toll.
As others have said though I think an interested and supportive family can make a huge difference but at that point my parents had huge financial worries and I got lost in the melee.

I think I probably would have HE'd but never felt confident enough to and I had huge depression after DS was diagnosed. But I do think that it played a big part in my choices for my childrens school .

cory · 06/10/2008 08:51

It is horrible and I don't blame anyone who gives up and keeps their head down under those circumstances. But thankfully it doesn't happen to every clever child. In dd's school, clever children seem to be accepted, neither singled out for bullying nor lionised. They seem to have a relaxed attitude in that place. Also in ds's junior school.

And people do react in different ways to bullying. I just got more stubborn. But I think that probably was due to parental support. I felt that my parents had better values and seemed more sensible people than the bullies, so their way- of finding the world exciting, wanting to learn more- had to be the better one.

Probably also helped that both sides of my family tree (father and maternal grandfather) contained clever boys who had made a much better life for themselves by acquiring learning against all odds. It's sort of been my childhood narrative. My Dad and my Granddad went hungry to get at the magic box of learning; I had things thrown at me.

My dd is fortunate in that she neither goes short of material things nor suffers from bullying, but for her, getting an education means a constant struggle with chronic pain. So she still needs a lot of support from home to keep her going. Our attitude is going to make all the difference; there's no way even the best teacher can do that.

SaintRiven · 06/10/2008 08:52

we had some teachers who would sneer at clever kids and join in the bullying.

cory · 06/10/2008 08:53

That is absolutely unforgivable, Riven.

tortoiseshell · 06/10/2008 08:55

MB - I'm presuming you meant 'look, say, cover, WRITE, check' (not right! You sound like a really lovely teacher btw, and your pupils are really lucky to have you looking out for them!

I think there are a few issues going on with this. Firstly, the majority of posts on MN, and the majority of so called 'gifted' children are actually about 'bright' children. ie children who are at the more able end of the spectrum, will do well academically, and will benefit from a bit of further stretching. These probably aren't children who have problems stemming from their brightness.

Secondly, there are some posts about the 'ultra-bright' child - ie the ones who really are outside the 'normal' attainment ranges. They probably do need an IEP at least, and I guess might get bored in class if not given appropriate work. On the other hand, learning to listen while others are spoken to is a good life skill I think, and as long as they are being stimulated appropriately, I think it's inevitable that they will for some of the time be a bit 'bored'.

Thirdly, there are posts which equate a 'bright' or a 'gifted' child to a child with SENs or SNs. This is where I fundamentally disagree. In an ideal world every child would have their education tailored exactly to them, 1:1 when they needed it etc etc. But if it comes to a choice between doing some advanced mathematics with a Y3/4 child, or helping another child to learn a couple of reception keywords, then I know where my priority would be - the reason is because something like reading is a BASIC skill that it is very hard to cope without (imagine how many times a day you have to use reading skills to fill in a form, check what's on TV, find directions). Whereas there is time to do advanced mathematics later, or the child can start having a go themselves. The two are just not equatable.

Thinking back to my own primary school days, I can think of a few interesting examples of pupils who may or may not have been on the G&T register. One friend would have been, and what HE was interested in was film-making. So he used his spare time (and 'bored' time in class) thinking about making films, and at home he experimented with a video camera. Made his first film in primary school, which was shown to the whole school, and he is now a very up-coming film director.

Thinking about myself - I was (without wishing to sound horribly arrogant) definitely unusually good at music, and bright, but not brilliant academically. So I found class work easy, but wasn't light years ahead iyswim - probably 4 or 5 of us about the same - so 'bright not gifted'. But I spent all my spare time doing music. In break times I would coerce people into coming into the library where there was a piano and would do 'choir practices'. And my 'choir' performed at the school concert. And like my film director friend, I just carried on doing this, and now am professional musician, who spends a lot of time taking and playing for choir practices!

Sorry for the long post - I guess what I'm saying is that the needs of 'gifted' children don't always need to be met in class, because often it is even better if they do it themselves. Whereas for a child with SNs, it must be teacher support.

pagwatch · 06/10/2008 09:00

cory
I garee with much of that.
My family were ( as they said) 'bog Irish' and education was a hard fought for luxury.
The trouble was that just at the times when they should have been supporting me they took their eye off the ball and i fell through the cracks a bit. I missed my oppertunity to go to uni because I had to earn money to send to them which is not actually something I regret.
It is one of the reasons that I love my sons school so much. He is amongst boys who are highly gifted and theirtalents are applauded and valued as much as the winning sports boys etc.
Ds1 also spots ASD type symptoms in some of these boys ( he recognises from his brother) but again they are accepted and encouraged. It is the perfect enviroment for him. He can be who is is - his geekiness is welcomed but his more alpha male stuff is applauded too.

I think it is a great comfort to those of us who did suffer at school to be able to find happier enviroments for our kids

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