For believing the drop in birth rate IS mostly because people who don't want children no longer have to have them

[CurdinHenry]

"Fertility experts" like Geeta Nargund in the news again insisting that "people still want to have children". Obviously some people wish they could have more children than they get to have. But it's never been a better world for people who are just not into it at all (or try one then realise it's not that much fun).

I don't think a survey asking people in vague terms if they'd like kids one day counts as proof of anything.

The data shows men and women want marriage in similar numbers although the trend is in men wanting it more.

That a man does not want marriage / a LTR with every woman he meets does not mean he does not want a LTR/ marriage full stop.

"Some day" and "Eventually".

...and look at the age range. That's 35 year olds saying they want to be parents some day! I'm sure when there 55 they are still saying they want to be parents some day!

I want to deep clean my pantry "some day". I bet if you ask me in 2 years I still haven't.

The evidence is clear. Women are all over mumsnet thinking about marriage, babies and relationships. Men are on Pistonheads talking about Cars. There is a man's dating thread on Pistonheads and trust me, those guys are not looking to settle down.

Why are we in such denial about what we want?

Well we've each stated our cases, I'll leave you the last word.

I genuinely don’t get why men would want marriage specifically as they can be financially disadvantaged. A man living with a SAHM has few legal obligations but marriage changes that.

They aren’t financially disadvantaged.

The Divorce Gap clearly shows women suffer much bigger financial impacts of divorce.

https://group.legalandgeneral.com/newsroom/press-releases/2025/4/the-divorce-gap-women-see-their-household-income-cut-in-half-in-the-year-after-a-divorce/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/the-divorce-gap/480333/

And that’s DIVORCE. Marriage delivers incredible benefits to men.
https://ifstudies.org/blog/why-marriage-is-good-for-men

https://www.forbes.com/sites/katharinabuchholz/2026/05/22/marriage-benefits-mens-life-expectancy-more-than-womens/

They live longer, are wealthier, healthier, have more sex etc.

And they are more likely than women to want to remarry:

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2014/11/14/chapter-2-the-demographics-of-remarriage/

I mean I have provided data whereas you have stated an emotional argument.

Actually, 100 years ago it was common for women to have kids into their 40s. Nothing to do with 'leaving it too late'. Its more that people are starting later, and having less kids overall.

You said they don’t desire it. The data shows opposite. The fact somebody has got to 35 and not achieved something they want does not mean they don’t desire it.

More than happy to see your data showing most men don’t desire LTR / marriage if you have it?

I think this is a big factor, but its more than just hobbies.
Theres so much judgement placed on mothers, before they even conceive, they have to take the right vitamins, eat the right foods, breastfeed, do this, do that, and the responsibility is over a much longer period of time now as kids arent moving out due to cost of living. Women are expected to birth drug free, stay slim, have a spotless house, but the expectations from schools grow and grow, assemblies, excursions, volunteering etc. Its impossible to be a 'good enough' mother by societies impossible standards, so who wants to play a game they cant win.

I agree this can be a factor why some women dont have more. I can think of 2 women who wanted a c section but were denied it due to policies. Both were in labour for ~35 hours and then ended up having an emergency c section anyway. Both of them have one child and state not wanting another traumatic birth as a big factor.

There are quite a number of couples I know where at least one or both were indifferent and in the days where it would have been a sociatable norm then they might have had them if they were able to. But it is now acceptable that people might not fot a variety of reasons, it is no longer something eyed with suspicion or sadness. Lots of men have always sort of wanted children in a maybe one day sense, or an if my partner wants them then so do I. The clock doesn't tick in the same way.

Generally, if people don't want to parent then i say don't have them. There are lots of people with issues stemming from their parents lack of ability to prioritise their wellbeing. Though still plenty of people who are walking in to parenting with their eyes shut 🤷‍♀️

If you knew the full reality, would you really sign up? Parents are so stretched, expected to work, but also supervise constantly and pay for childcare when they can't. Constant activities, extra curriculars etc. Worries at the state of education, future prospects, climate change etc. I love my kids, but it's hard work and society is not supportive. Everything is more expensive when it's geared at families and people often don't like children in less typically family orientated environments.

It is now fully acceptable for child free adults to holiday at Disney (or in fact anywhere they want) as often as they choose. You no longer need to have a child to participate in things that are thought of as being more child like.
Tbf, not that many of us with children can actually afford to go abroad at all and our friends have probably noted that 😂

Yep, another reason Ive seen a lot in real life, woman screwed around by a guy who maybe might have kids one day...
Or the reality that many relationships with kids end and single mums end up being judged and disadvantaged.

Actually most infertility is not age related. And 45% of infertility is male related, yet people on here only mention female.
Likewise, most women in their late 30s / early 40s are fertile.
Sorry to hear about your struggles.

Do you have stats for that, because its a big accusation.

Actions speak louder than words. Revealed preferences are more convincing than an answer to a random survey. If people wanted to breed they would breed.

... You didn't provide any data you just asserted that some exists somewhere.

No suitable partner

Totally agree with this.

Reminds me of a SATC quote:

”If I wanted children, wouldn’t I have tried to have them by now?”

You can answer arbitrary questionnaires about whether you want something “one day”, but if you fail to do something about it over decades (yes, even women’s reproductive window spans decades), then how much did you really want it in the first place? Having completely no choice (e.g. infertility from a young age and failed fertility treatments) represents the minority of cases of ‘child-free not by choice’.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2024-12-10-expert-comment-why-are-people-uk-leaving-it-so-late-have-children

Parenting is a gamble . I have two children one is an optimist, the other a pessimist. Their temperament was there from birth. Fortunately mine have both turned out ok. I’ve seen kids from rough council estates born to single mothers go on to shine academically and do well in life . I’ve known kids who’s parents who have given them every advantage and brought them up in affluent areas take a wrong turn in life and end up in the streets on drugs . I think people underestimate the time you have to devote to children . I found the lack of freedom hard . I would say to any new parent just go with the flow , and accept for the first five years of childcare your life is not your own and don’t sweat the small stuff .Small kids are happy with simple things such as the park , and are happy on a British beach making sandcastles, and as most people only seem to have two children try not to have large age gaps . Once they become independent and don’t need nappies , bottles and pushchairs it gets much easier .

Because after a couple of generations this would right itself and we wouldn’t have such a skewed population if we had a reduced but static birth rate.

The only issues would be if we had too many increases in the medical field and people began living to 100+ more regularly, but at that point you would have to think that people wouldn’t be ‘old’ in their 70s anymore and could work for longer and require less resource from those of working age

I used to think like this before I joined MN, but reading some of the threads about teenagers and how people refer to parenting teenagers as the most mentally challenging thing they’ve experienced makes you think the struggle extends way beyond the first 5 years.

Same goes for the cost/freedom arguments. In this day and age, very few children move out and become completely financially independent and self-sufficient at 18. Instead parents are financially supporting children well into their 20s. It’s not at all uncommon for young people to still be living with their parents in their late 20s and even 30s.

The idea that a couple who cracked on with having kids in their early 20s will be “free” to experience what they missed out on in their 20s in their 40s is fanciful. It is much more likely that they’ll spend their 40s still supporting adult children - driving lessons, university, weddings, house deposits, and will have to continue working into their 60s to make up for the impact to career/pension that having kids young can have. By the time they can take that gap year travelling the world, the parents who didn’t have children until their 40s will also be retiring and enjoying the freedom to travel and pursue hobbies etc. Probably with healthier pensions.

Like I said having kids is a gamble . No one knows how they will turn out but it’s easier on parents mentally and physically to have children when they are younger . Most people are having children in their early thirties and are living longer . With teenagers it’s getting the balance right between giving them freedom and enforcing boundaries. Its important to start as you mean to go on when they are toddlers and that they understand that no means no and you are the parent and not their friend . It’s wise to keep a close eye on the company they keep . Parenting is not easy it’s draining , expensive, stressful and tiring but it’s very rewarding too when they make you proud or they say they love you and mean it ,and they come through it all to adulthood and especially when Granchildren arrive . It’s like a reward for all the years devoted to child rearing . It’s different, I never used to understand what people meant but it is . Remember that other parents won’t tell you anything negative about their kids only the good stuff but everyone had problems with their kids at some point .

Grandchildren are not guaranteed just because you have children.

The idea that a couple who cracked on with having kids in their early 20s will be “free” to experience what they missed out on in their 20s in their 40s is fanciful. It is much more likely that they’ll spend their 40s still supporting adult children - driving lessons, university, weddings, house deposits, and will have to continue working into their 60s to make up for the impact to career/pension that having kids young can have. By the time they can take that gap year travelling the world, the parents who didn’t have children until their 40s will also be retiring and enjoying the freedom to travel and pursue hobbies etc. Probably with healthier pensions.

As will those who didn’t have children. In fact they’ll probably retire earlier.