For believing the drop in birth rate IS mostly because people who don't want children no longer have to have them

[CurdinHenry]

"Fertility experts" like Geeta Nargund in the news again insisting that "people still want to have children". Obviously some people wish they could have more children than they get to have. But it's never been a better world for people who are just not into it at all (or try one then realise it's not that much fun).

I don't think a survey asking people in vague terms if they'd like kids one day counts as proof of anything.

I think that there is far more choice today as in admitting you don't want children instead of just doing what was expected and having two or three children because of societal expectations

Fertility only drops a tiny bit at 35, and more steeply after 40. It would be unlikely for age to be the reason for infertility in somebody who is 36. Im pretty sure 36 is the average age to have a baby in Australia.

No, actually, after an immediate post-WW1 spike in births, the 1920s were a historically low period for birth rates — because of the war deaths causing a huge number of ‘excess’ women who were unlikely to marry, and an allied shift of women into the workforce in huge numbers, plus families, for those who did marry and have children, became much smaller, presumably in part because of economic pressures and the increasing availability of contraception.

That page is from a fertility clinic. They have a vested interest.
I had my last baby naturally at 42 and several of my friends have had similar. I spoke to experts in the field
Its codswallop to say that late 30s significantly reduces chances. It slightly does, not significantly.
Women's fertility is more complicated than you might have heard

Prior to the advent of the contraceptive pill women had more babies and started having babies younger, but they continued until menopause. Births to women in their 40s were considered normal.

Just to clarify - that page is from an egg freezing clinic. They ABSOLUTELY have a vested interest in telling women that fertility declines quickly. Can you show a stat from a reputable medical source?

I would wager people who have sat in a fertility clinic know more about the patients that frequent them than judgy mumsnetters who think they're all washed up 40 year olds instead. As indicated by you "You're only going to meet those using the service". Well yes, I did, and the people who were using the service aren't what you are describing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK576440/

No, but the resulting children who love in poverty because she didn't get herself sorted financially first will certainly care.

I think you’re confusing me with another poster?

I'm early forties. I've got lots of friends who wanted more children but stopped at 1 or 2 because they left it too late & were not successful trying to get pregnant again. Ive also got a few friends who just never got there at all.

Ive also got lots of colleagues who wanted more but couldnt afford, and lots who are very stretched & stressed timewise juggling a child with two working parents so opted not to add in another child.

We've made parenthood quite hard now, everyone is struggling to manage it and work.

This isnt true. Both my grandmothers had a "surprise" 3rd child (one was 39 the other 40) and they both told me they were considered old to have fallen pregnant.

Yes they typically were in a position to have babies at 22 in 1928 because they didn’t have the same educational opportunities or expectations to be anything other than dependent wives and mothers. Do you really want to go back to that?

As others have said women did not have babies especially young in the 1920's many never married and there was increasing opportunities ( bright yoing things, flappers etc). Many young couples delayed having children whilst they saved to move out of their parents' homes. Young motherhood was really a feature of the post war decades.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/conceptionandfertilityrates/bulletins/childbearingforwomenbornindifferentyearsenglandandwales/2021and2022

I don't have a dog in this fight. I think the world is grossly over populated and a big reduction is 100% positive. The cultures that breed will survive.

On the other hand if women want kids that's great too.

So no, I don't want anything, I'll be happy however it turns out, including the statistics quo.

That’s just your opinion. And it’s frankly patronising to suggest only having children can pull someone out of ‘kidulthood’.

I’m 37. At 22 I knew nothing about myself or the world. I made poor dating decisions. I was not financially secure. I had just finished my Masters degree, and going on to do professional exams until the age of 27. I partied, travelled, lived with friends etc. Having children then would have made zero sense and I would have been a dreadful parent.

I subscribe to the idea that ‘your 30s are your 20s with money’, and that has been the case for me and all my friends. My one close friend with a child is 47 with a 7 year-old. DH and I may have a baby (and thankfully we’re aligned on only wanting one) but we won’t be in a position to try until next year for various reasons. Leaving it ‘so late’ may mean we won’t be able to conceive naturally as I’ll be almost 38 and well past the “cliff at 35”. We therefore may need IVF which of course could fail, leaving us to explore adoption which we may of course be rejected for. But is any of this enough to make me do life differently? No. I’m aware of the risks of delaying, as is every woman making the same choices as me. We’re just okay with that risk.

I’m not sure when the narrative changed to “fertility falls off a cliff at 40”? I’ve always known it as 35.

Maybe it’s 40 with IVF?

For natural conception I’m sure it’s much younger. I’m 37 and practically resigned to the fact we’ll need IVF when we start TTC. I froze my eggs a few years ago with this in mind.

Housing is a huge factor in this. If young people are living with their parents aged 30 they probably won't end up having kids.

You will find if housing and general household expenses gets much more affordable this will change. Imagine if they were in their own house at 20, surely that is more conducive to having more kids? Childcare is too expensive too. There is such a huge emphasis on both parents working full time like it should be the norm. If both parents had a 4 day week each it would be much more manageable and less stressful.

i just think young people know it's really stressful and uncertain. They put it off until things 'get better' but they don't get better and leave it too late.

I don't think women have had to have children for a very long time so I really disagree that is the reason for a falling birth rate.
The people I know who don't have children or don't have as many as they wanted are the ones who waited until their late 30s to start trying.

The science says 35 too. MN is the only place I see people say any different.

Yup, MN tends to rely on anecdata an awful lot.

Funnily enough, in my social circle, no one with children had them before 35. Most were 38+. But I know we’re very much an exception.

The fact there are 14 years between 22 and 36 is not " just my opinion". We may be outliers in my family but DM, DSis, DD and myself all partied pretty hard from 14 onwards so by 22 we'd had 8 years off going out, playing the field etc. By 25 tbh I was over it. I was lucky to buy a home around that time, I realise this is less achievable these days, but a woman in her 20's can be quite old enough to know her own mind.

Nobody is partying from 14 onwards these days. And just because you were “over it” by 22, it doesn’t mean that most women were.

What I find peculiar is there seems to be more judgment BY WOMEN (usually mothers) of women who ‘leave it late’ and still get a baby, than of women who stay child-free for whatever reason.

You see it on threads about late pregnancy all the time. A 42 year-old woman with teenage children who has a ‘surprise’ baby gets reams and reams of congratulations on her “lovely surprise”. A woman the same age having her first child is met with all the “risks” of her late pregnancy and “why had she left it so late” and - my favourite - “you’ll be 60 when they finish school” (because you somehow stop ageing when you have a third child in your 40s…).

It seems it’s okay to have a baby at 40+, just as long as you’ve already sacrificed your 20s and 30s to motherhood. 👍