For believing the drop in birth rate IS mostly because people who don't want children no longer have to have them

[CurdinHenry]

"Fertility experts" like Geeta Nargund in the news again insisting that "people still want to have children". Obviously some people wish they could have more children than they get to have. But it's never been a better world for people who are just not into it at all (or try one then realise it's not that much fun).

I don't think a survey asking people in vague terms if they'd like kids one day counts as proof of anything.

That’s true no they are not . Nothing is guaranteed in life but lot of people have life plans and get very depressed or angry and bitter when life doesn’t deliver what they expect .

I’m afraid it’s not really got anything to do with what you believe. It’s a complex question to assess that takes specific analytical methods drawing from a range of disciplines including demography and economics. The increase in women’s economic power will no doubt be part of the answer depending on the context we’re talking about.

Why does it have to be one over the other?

Yes, being child free is more socially accepted.

But also women are having children later and having fertility issues, creating less time and assurance in extending family.

And people don’t know how they’ll pay for nursery years multiple times. And cost of living is too high to make people confident in having children or more children.

All these things are true.

Toys are so irrelevant to how a kid turns out. I hated all girls toys as a kid never went near a baby doll but at 15 I was the one getting pregnant on purpose. The girls I went to school with who were obsessed with babies and cute things in primary school a lot of them havent had any children yet.

I still can’t get over the tv show “I am jazz” where they decided their toddler son was actually a girl because he liked pink sparkly things (like big sister). Jazz is now a 26 year old eunuch

Nobody used to talk widely about the lack of freedom, the loss of identity, the stresses, the expense. But not you don't have to go very far to find it. The algorithm will present. Probably if you are a woman of a certain age. It is less likely that you will enter motherhood unaware of what it entails and quite honestly, I imagine it does put people off when they look at their life where they are comfortable and in full control.

I think all stages have their challenges personally. Mine are both over 5. Between 5-12 it is expected that you will be supervising far more than anyone did 30 years ago and teens have many challenges, not least the worry that their future is quite uncertain.

My DF is in his 70s and when he was small it was common for 5yo DC to walk back from school alone or let themselves in when parents were at work. Different times now and more expectations and pressure.

No only some is that
Others its age and fertility.
My dsis uni friends a few literally left it too late

I think over time fewer will have kids. I think many my age thought it would be equal but it hasnt been and working instead would be much easier than work plus kids.
I didnt realise how difficult kids could be at preschool age. The illness, no sleep, and very difficult behaviour (adhd) so the kods didnt fit at nursery as too difficult nor well at school. We had a few ok years y4-y6 then lots of issues at secondary.
The fun years of sabta etc werent always fun even. And they knew about that by age 7.

I think for your average parent to average kids it is ok after a few weeks after birth when they sleep then skip into nursery at 1.

As someone without a partner or children I can assure you I won’t be retiring early - in fact I won’t be retiring until I’m forced to. I’m mid 50s and can’t afford to as I have no pension.

Life is very insecure for people, even those not shouting about it

"I'm afraid" there's no meaningful evidence economists or anyone else can offer. The really interesting question is why so many people are programmed to say they want something when appear not to really.

That doesnt remotely prove what you said. Its a discussion around the reasons, no stats there. And the reasons dont align with what you said anyway.
The question was do you have any proof that the cause of infertility is age related caused by women 'leaving it too long'.

I think Men say they want children "one day" because they assume they will want to settle "when they're older". They don't realize that day never comes. There never is a day when children seem better than Holidays and cars and sex and spare cash and spare time. Children always feel like hassle and drudgery, and that doesn't change just because men reach 43 years old.

I think most women say they don't want children to protect themselves from disappointment and to avoid appearing desperate. They lie to potential partners because it will scare them off. (Think about that for a minute, surely scaring the guys who don't want kids off is a good thing! They're the unsuitable ones that need to be discarded fast in the hunt for the men who want to settle down.)

If the majority of women want children we need to put the genie back in tbe bottle. Women need to go back to unionising: Quite openly saying "We want marriage and families and we don't have sex with anyone unless they're prepared to provide that." That worked well for at least 2000 years and puts the power in women's hands.

Of course it women genuinely don't want husbands and families then great, the current situation is perfect for women and men certainly aren't complaining!

Is it more common, or are people just talking about it more and/or trying to have children late towards drops on fertility anyway?

This 36 year olds, probably wouldn't have struggled at 22.

Female fertility drops as you get older ... So yes,, you can leave it too long. Waiting until late 30s/early 40s significantly reduces chance of natural conception and a resulting healthy pregnancy.

https://extendfertility.com/your-fertility/fertility-statistics-by-age/

Older women having IVF and 'beating' the system is perhaps skewing some people's perception ...and expectations.

It's just occured to me the whole idea of a survey asking people what they want "in the future" was mad.

If you want to know what 20yos will want in 20 years time just ask 40yo year olds.

The only question that matters is "Would.you like children today.". The question "Would you like children in the future" is designed to produce a massive false bias towards yes.

You might as well ask "Will you lose weight in the future." Most people will say yes, but when the future comes mars bars will be just as tempting and the weight loss will never actually happen.

It's like with the younger people I was talking about, on a survey I think they would tick an "I might want children in the future" box. The idea of having children isn't inherently repulsive to them. I think at least some of them had good childhoods and have positive relationships with their own mothers. There are people who'd never want kids but I wouldn't put them in that category.

In practice they don't want kids enough to settle for a rubbish dad. They don't want kids enough to "juggle" kids and work in the way a lot of people on MN describe and that they've seen their female colleagues do. In practice this means not having kids regardless of any hypothetical tick box.

I needed IVF at 29 due to endometriosis. When I was sitting in the waiting room at the clinic none of the couples there had "left it too late" they were all younger than late 30s. Health conditions causing infertility are a lot more common than people think. Endometriosis affects 1 in 19 women, PCOS 2 in ten. Some couples will have a fertile woman but the man has low sperm count or poor sperm quality for whatever reason. Unexplained fertility affects some couples. Some women have blocked fallopian tubes or irregular ovulation and need help. Infertility is rising and it's really ignorant that everyone just thinks women are leaving it too late.

The thing is if you need IVF it is better to discover that the right side of 30 and definately the right side of 35 unless you have very deep pockets and no qualms about using donor eggs +/- surrogates.

I started ttc at 29. Tried for 18 months before going to the GP. By the time I’d had the basic tests at gynae outpatients, had a lap and dye when you have air pumped in to your pelvis, reproductive organs inspected and dye squirted through the fallopian tubes to ensure they are patent, under GA), and tried Clomid for 9 months, I was 33 by the time we got to the fertility clinic proper.

Exactly I hope you ended up with a positive outcome.

No I didn’t. But I’m at peace with that and life is good.

But at 22 she would be unlikely to be in a stable long term relationship or financial position to have a child.

It hardly needs pointing out that there are 14 years between 22 and 36 that is an extremely extended kidulthood.

So?

Biology doesn't care about her career....

Okay... so ? your small sample isn't proof?

And it's a self selecting sample, isn't it? You're only going to meet those who are using the service.

You'll walk past 500+ women in town the same age who don't suffer from infertility at that age.... 🤷

There's always been infertility, it's nature's way unfortunately, a d the longer you leave it the less likely conception will happen. Early 20s /under 25 is the best time - which, historically is generally when women had babies, married and first kids by 21 etc

It's just now that we infantilise adults and think of a fully grown woman if 23 as "just a kid" and they don't get married, jobs, houses families etc, leaving it all later by around a decade....at which point your fertility is already on a steep downward trajectory 🤷

Biology doesn't care that your darling daughter wants to be a doctor and wants to study and work her way up to surgeon and then think about babies at 34.... It wanted you to babe that baby by 24.

Sad but true. Our societal values/ goals/ expectations don’t match women’s fertility.

Don’t really know what the answer is as we shouldn’t go backwards?!?

Maybe more flexibility to take career breaks and training paths for professions to be more flexible for all parents.

If feminism meant we still could survive on one good wage that would have been fine. As both parents could work part time/ take career breaks to support each others careers at different times if one salary was enough.

Sadly financially all that’s happened is you now need 2 wages for family life.

So, if we want women to have babies they need to be in a position to at 22. In 1928 they typically were. In 2026 they almost never are.

We might be happy with that, if so great.