For believing the drop in birth rate IS mostly because people who don't want children no longer have to have them

[CurdinHenry]

"Fertility experts" like Geeta Nargund in the news again insisting that "people still want to have children". Obviously some people wish they could have more children than they get to have. But it's never been a better world for people who are just not into it at all (or try one then realise it's not that much fun).

I don't think a survey asking people in vague terms if they'd like kids one day counts as proof of anything.

But it's the women that don't want the children by the sounds of it.. The birth rate has declined in all advanced economies where women have the ability to financially support themselves without men AND have access to family planning. Those economies with higher birth rate tend to be socially as well as economically backward so women's reproductive choices are controlled in the form of access to contraception, early marriage, arranged marriage etc. and in those countries women have large families because they can't prevent pregnancy. In countries where women can prevent multiple pregnancy or any pregnancy they do so. So that tells me that its the women that don't want the babies because for women pregnancy is expensive for men it is cheap and also an easy way to keep a woman under his control.

So that tells me that its the women that don't want the babies because for women pregnancy is expensive for men it is cheap and also an easy way to keep a woman under his control.

Children are eye wateringly expensive for men, just as they are for women.

Why would men want to control women? Or anyone else.

Even in backwards cultures men are so reluctant to marry it requires a dowry.
There are plenty of exceptions, of course.

Men just aren't as interested in marriage and kids as women are. There aren't equivalents of Bride Magazines, (or not in large numbers). Fathers don't get excited when their kids get married and rush off the buy hats. The relationship threads are full of women looking for LTRs and finding strategies to find a man. (Complaining that there are plenty of men on dating sites who aren't seriously looking for a relationship.)

Young girls play with dolls. Nurturing is literally a game to young girls. It isn't to young boys.

Women say all the time "Men are only interested in one thing."

If we think marriage is a tool men use to control women let's ban marriage and see who complains most!

People are leaving it too late as well though so this plays a part. Women aren’t freezing their eggs or even if they do, they find they can’t carry a pregnancy to term because they’re well into perimenopause. I think some women hold out too long for the perfect time when there really isn’t one.

No, as I CLEARLY said, you can strike even if the thing you are striking from is something you enjoy.

I think more is expected of fathers now. When you look at periods like in Call the midwife women were doing most of the childrearing with help from their mothers. Now with both more people not living near extended family and benign neglect not an option like it was father's are expected to do more. The problem is I don't think men as a whole have fundamentally changed since then.

There are plenty of good fathers of course but more men would probably be up for having kids if they could be as hands off as men used to be.

I don’t think so. I think for some it’s that. For me, it’s because I wanted to be ready financially, and right when I was about to be DH got a disease and became disabled and so it’s been delayed… and I don’t know if we will ever have them now but I can’t afford them and keeping DH all by myself.

The dowry point isn’t a good one - for as many less economically developed nations have a dowry as many have a bride price. It goes either way depending on culture.

And saying ‘backwards’ is horribly offensive.

Agree about use of backwards.

”Why would men want to control women?”

Ffs! Ask them! But it happens all over the world - ever heard of the patriarchy and misogyny?I can’t believe this is even a debate.

Many if not most men want the benefit of marriages. Some men may not want actual legal marriage nowadays but they want the benefit of marriages, therefore in cultures where they don’t have to marry but can have the benefits of free domestic labour, regular sex with a committed woman who will in most cases bear and raise their children, some are opting out of the legal part.

But the marriage “set up” certainly does benefit men. Because they do want a woman who is committed to them and they do for the most part want children - but they say men want kids like kids want puppies!

A friend of mine was married to a man who was keen to marry her in a matter of months ( who she later found out was a serial cheat) he didn’t take interest in their child or spend 1:1 time bonding with her. When their child was 6 he said they should have another one. She was baffled and said no because childcare was already a struggle. He said they would figure it out and she said nope, I’ll have to figure it out. Because that’s what happens right? The woman has to cut her hours or give up her job and when they split up she is often left in poverty especially if he goes on to have more kids and reduces CMS.

Well this friends husband got quite sulky and eventually moved on with one of the women he was cheating on shortly after.

So here we have a man who desperately wanted marriage and kids, but wasn’t into monogamy or actually being an engaged father. That sums it up for a lot of men.

I follow a lot of childfree and single social media counts and without fail 90% of the angry and frothy comments about a woman’s choice to stay single and childfree are men.

I'd say subjugating women and reducing them to breeding objects was pretty backwards.

And plenty of women never played with dolls as children and even now would go out if their way to avoid contact with babies or young children. 😬

Girls are brainwashed from a young age into thinking having a partner and children is the ultimate goal. It’s depressing because that relies on meeting and trusting someone (although of course it is rarely the right person but they settle because they fear being single and childless). So they rely on someone else for their happiness, hence all the relationship dilemmas. Great for those who want it of course and who meet the person that they are happy with, I’m sure.

Maybe it’s my AuDHD but I couldn’t base my happiness on something I have so little control over. I couldn’t make that leap of faith and give someone the power to change my life on a whim. Putting that level of trust in someone is terrifying!

Women are constantly reminded of their biology even if they don’t have children - periods/meno etc and men aren’t. If we want children we have to consider it in the short window of our lives that we may be fertile.

Many if not most men want the benefit of marriages. Some men may not want actual legal marriage nowadays but they want the benefit of marriages, therefore in cultures where they don’t have to marry but can have the benefits of free domestic labour, regular sex with a committed woman who will in most cases bear and raise their children, some are opting out of the legal part.
But the marriage “set up” certainly does benefit men. Because they do want a woman who is committed to them and they do for the most part want children - but they say men want kids like kids want puppies!

I'm sure some do, but from the vast numbers of posts on the relationships board not many. One yesterday:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5591866-dating-advice

And the old folklore truism that "Men only want one thing." I don't think that one thing is long term commitment.

With the internet there’s so much more information out there about the reality of pregnancy, birth and parenting. Plenty of people, (especially women) have done theor research and decided it’s not for them. If I was a man I would have considered being a parent but as a woman? No chance.

And plenty of women never played with dolls as children and even now would go out if their way to avoid contact with babies or young children.

Yup, and plenty of men want to settle down. But on average the numbers strongly bias one way.

Girls are brainwashed from a young age into thinking having a partner and children is the ultimate goal.

Who by? Reading threads on mumsnet the pressure for grandchildren always comes from the mother. Maybe women aren't deliberately brainwashing each other maybe they really do like children? Nobody says "Men are brainwashed into liking boobs." We just accept they do. Why do women have to be victim of a conspiracy?

So they rely on someone else for their happiness, hence all the relationship dilemmas.

I fear that is true.

If we want children we have to consider it in the short window of our lives that we may be fertile.

That is also true. But it supports the logic that women would be more interested in children than men, because men have no hard coded time limit.

It's an interesting hypothesis and quite probably one of the factors, I doubt it is the main one, though. I think the cost of living, taking longer to get financially secure, not only reduces the numbers, but for some, it means that they then run out of time with fertility, are big contributors too.

Yeah, there are many factors. There's basically a perfect storm of reasons having kids is less appealing now than it ever was, and none of them are going to go away.

I have had far more judgement from women than men about not wanting children.

Of course some just like children. And many will want children because it’s a biological urge. All good.

Giving girls dolls and encouraging them to play ‘mummies’ does send a message about their future role - otherwise why is giving a boy one seen as different or strange.

And your point about the mothers pressuring their children to give them grandchildren proves my point - women unintentionally brainwashing other women into feeling they have to accept that role.

It’s fine if it is made clear that it is an option rather than an expectation.

I guess I was lucky because I was raised by parents who didn’t put that expectation of a relationship and kids on me at any point. Plus being AUDHD means I have a slightly different approach to emotional stuff.

What are the benefits of marriage for a man compared with living together? Marriage gives women rights but doesn’t benefit men

I think the point is you can go on strike despite enjoying what you do. When Iceland’s women went on strike in the 70s many were not striking from paid work. Some also refused to things such as childcare and I am sure they enjoy motherhood.

We can refrain from things we enjoy, to achieve a higher goal. That seems a fairly straight forward point to understand.

I've got no quarrel with any of that, except kids aren't given specific toys and told which ones to play with. There's usually a big pile of toys and they select the ones they want to use. If girls didn't want to play with dolls they'd be left on the shelf.

And it's not subtle. At any nursery I've seen nearly all the boys go for "boy toys" and nearly all the girls go for "girl toys".

I've seen my son pretending he on a space ship and my daughter say her cooker was on the space ship and made herself the space ship "homemaker" FWOABW.

I am not sure this has ever been true. Sure many men don’t want the drudgery (as they see it) of childcare but most want a “legacy”.

Agreed. Which is why I find the focus on women alone rather sexist. Women don’t create children alone so men need to be part of the conversation.

IMO quite a few people would like 4 or even more, but nowadays you generally have to be either extremely well off, or else pretty much totally dependent on benefits, and not remotely bothered about it, in order to have a large family.

This is factually inaccurate though an oft quoted myth: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/02/15/among-young-adults-without-children-men-are-more-likely-than-women-to-say-they-want-to-be-parents-someday/

Women may have greater interest in the organisation of a wedding day. But there is no significant variability on desire for marriage among men and women.

Dowries are nothing to do with persuading men to marry and everything to do with him demonstrating providership. See how those cultures react to women who refrain from marriage. It’s never positive. If men were fine with women never marrying then spinsters would be venerated not derided.

Well yes, that the tradeoff.

A lifetime of drudgery and decendents or a happy life and no decendants.

I'm not sure the vast majority of men are especially enthusiastic about the former!

But the data says most men want children and in larger numbers than women. I have posted it above. You are confusing “not wanting to parent” with “not wanting children”.

Those are two very different things.