To think the government need to make disruptive pupil behaviour the parents' problem not the school's?

[GoodChocolate]

Low level and more serious disruptive behaviour is having a serious impact on children's education and teachers' health and wellbeing.
I propose a very, very consistent system of mini -exclusions whereby for every instance of low level disruptive behaviour (eg talking when they are not supposed to be talking )
The following procedure applies

1)the child has 3 chances a day.one initial warning One final warning and on the third occasion the child is sent to the office and the parents sre summoned.
2) The parent must be at the school within 60 minutes of the call
3) From the time the child leaves the school they are not allowed back until both
a) a full 24 (not counting weekends) has elapsed.
AND
b) the parent has completed an hour long very interactive virtual parenting course.Tbis happens every time the child receives a mini exclusion

If the parent fails to present themselves at tge school within the 60minutes this is treated as child abandonment and an escalating series of fines imposed, followed eventually by prosecution
If the course isnt done in time for the child go return to school after the 24 hour mini exclusion, then this is treated as unauthorised absence.
In cases of hitting ,swearing. Spitting etc no chances are given.
The parents and their employers are going to getboretty sick of this pretty quickly and sort their kids out.

I don't disagree with that. I don't quite see how it connects with what I just said
Unless your meaning is that it's the teachers' responsibility to teach children to respect as well as teaching their subjects? I think if it doesn't start at home then the are going to be big problems.

Completely agree. The screens and social media are a huge human experiment with devastating consequences, some are more obvious than others..

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16182261/police-reports-child-rape-schools-England-Wales-8500-sexual-offences-against-children-13-logged-five-years.html - like this

A good friend who is a teacher has noticed a steady slide in general functioning of young children. She says that the Year 3s and 4s now can't read like the ones from before covid. They're so far behind. She said the parents don't read to their kids and their social skills are poor. Turn taking is a disaster for more and more kids. She said some kids don't seem to have experienced any discipline at all and expect to be allowed to do whatever they want.

100% true. I’ve got a class of 30 and genuinely I’d say 70-80% of them struggle with basic manners, conversation, turn taking, etc!

No, schools don’t have to accept that parents will not be contactable at any point while their child is in school. For the entire day. The child is ultimately the parents responsibility and not the school. Can’t just hand them over and sign off unfortunately. School is not childcare. Parents have 4 years before their child starts school to ensure that someone or something is in place in an emergency instead of expecting school to look after an unwell or injured child for the entire day. Parents don’t just get to shrug and say I can’t be there, what else can I do. It’s your child. Figure it out. It’s not for school or anyone else to do so. Anyway I’m going round in circles now so won’t post again. Genuinely baffled that some parents honestly think it’s fine to never have sorted this and assume school will sort it all for them.

“No, schools don’t have to accept that parents will not be contactable at any point…”

so… what are they going to do about it?

you and I both know they can do fuck all. So they have to accept it

Is there a reason we can’t do both? Screens are a big problem but not the only problem. In my school, huge numbers of parents expect us to provide breakfast, lunch, snacks and appropriate clothing, teach discipline, even potty train in some cases. Instead of literacy and numeracy, I’m teaching manners, turn taking, basic conversation, hand washing, eating with a fork, and many other things that should be instilled long before school age. Parenting classes would ensure that parents actually know how to impart these skills, as I’m not convinced they do currently! Massive amounts of people want everything done for them for free in society now.

One child’s disruption should never outweigh the right of 29 others to learn.

..sadly this is the case in many schools.

YANBU OP.

This is the case in the vast majority of schools. In my class of 30 I’d say I spend 80% of my time keeping 3-4 children settled and regulated enough to avoid disruption, foul language, other children being assaulted, myself being assaulted, property being damaged, etc. That leaves approx 20% of my time for 87% of my pupils.

How old are they? By age 4 children should have these skills. If they don't - that is 100% down to shit parenting. When will people start taking responsibility for their own children rather than expecting schools to do it all.

I'm sorry :(. That is so depressing. You must be shattered at the end of each day.

God knows what all this means / consequences in 10-20 yrs time

Scottish P4 so 7-8 sadly, but we’ve got them right up to P7 like that. No responsibility at all.

I also worry about recruiting good quality teaching and school staff - with over 30% resigning in the first five years it’s not a good projection. Many of my experienced colleague are only still in the role because to leave would mean a huge pay drop; many are prioritising overpayment of mortgages over holidays etc to allow early retirement.

This almost keeps me awake at night. Wtf will happen when they’re adults? It doesn’t bear thinking about.

100%

There's already a massive mental health crisis in 18-24 year olds. It's already filtering through..

There's been a slow and steady decline of normal human functioning that's now coming home to roost. Smart phones took off in 2014, reaching 80% saturation in the general public in the UK.

That means kids as young as 14 then would have started seeing stuff and being affected. By 2019, kids of 11 were being given smart phones to go to secondary, it had been completely normalised by then. They are turning 18 now.

CAHMS is overrun with mental health demands. Waiting lists are over 2years long in many part of the country. Even then you get a few sessions and you have to keep requesting more help, once you come to the end of the first 4.

https://www.youngminds.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/mental-health-statistics/

1/3 of young adults of self-harmed.

Record-High Economic Inactivity: The proportion of young people out of work and not looking for a job (economically inactive) has hit its highest level since quarterly recording began in 1992. Nearly 1 million young people in the UK are classified as NEET (Not in Education, Employment, or Training).

The Sickness Driver: A staggering 44% of NEET young adults report a work-limiting health condition—primarily driven by mental health disorders

I don't think parents have any idea just how bad things are out there...

And finally..

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/school-teacher-survey-uk-punched-nsauw-b2734985.html

One in five teachers hit or kicked in 2025.

I think schools are doing their best but there's something very very wrong with society now.

So yes, teachers need to just be able to teach and parents aren't doing their jobs.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/children-reading-school-laureate-phillipson-b2938529.html

less than 50% now get read a bed time story.

It's so so so sad. That first five years is where you do all the work. That's why Princess Kate has tried to help with the early years. Not sure it's done much but she has the right idea.

@Sirzy
1)nobody is writing kids off-they are only excluded for 24 hours at a time.
2) if the parents lose their job, they should have no difficulty in getting to the school within 60 minutes to pick up their kids and wont incur a fine.

Ok now you’re just trolling 🤷🏻‍♀️

YANBU at all OP. I agree 100%

smart phones may have taken off around 2014, (I'm surprised it wasn't sooner), but around 2010 spending per pupil in school fell by about 9%, NHS budgets in real terms were about 3% less per year while demand went up. CAHMS budgets were also frozen around 2010. It's a perfect storm! Those 18-24 year olds fell right into it.

CAHMS spending has increased since but it hasn't kept up with demand, while certain services which once fell under CAHMS now don't in many areas, such as autism diagnosis.

These are all fantastic but there are three problems. Firstly, where these are present how easy is it for children to access them? Often not very easy as it requires staff and school budgets are stretched, therefore not enough staff.

Secondly, children are individuals. What works for one doesn't work for another unfortunately and I often feel this isn't understood. We've had problems getting my anxious child into school and pressure for her to use the soft start club which doesn't work for her for a number of reasons. She has an EHCP so theoretically the extra money is there but, of course, school budgets are stretched so getting to the point where another solution was found was a long and stressful process.

Thirdly, not all schools do have or allow the things you've listed. In fact, some specifically push against them. Some teachers won't allow fidget toys (even quiet ones) as they see them as a distraction. There's a failure to understand the benefits they bring to some children who probably do become dysregulated and express this outwardly (my child internalises so everyone thinks she's fine when she's not).

When looking at secondary schools recently most, I felt, actively discouraged us without having seen our daughter's EHCP. They don't allow children to leave classes 5 mins early to avoid crowds or to leave if they are becoming dysregulated to go to the nurture area (where available, some said they didn't have anywhere pupils could go), they don't allow uniform adaptions or if they did it was a very specific adaption that may work for one child but not another. I heard of one parent being told that their child may be the target of bullying if they did accept that adaption though. One school told me they couldn't do what was in the EHCP. It was a very specific therapeutic intervention funded in total by the EHCP and would be provided by an external provider. Several schools had a list of interventions they could provide for children with SEN. Most were academic interventions - help with phonics and numeracy essentially. Then there was a token nod to Lego therapy. Another school whose head teacher had sold the school in his speech on inclusivity and SEN support, had a SENCO who it felt like was putting me off the school. She failed to mention a lot of things that I know for a fact the school have in place for other children, even when I asked specifically.

The whole secondary school tour thing was disappointing as it left my thinking there will be no where for my child. I would be stunned if she gets specialist - there just aren't any that match her needs.

100% agree

Yeah, sure op. A neurodiverse dc who speaks three times during class should be punished by having their parents lose their job. That seems totally proportional.

Every time I read a post from an adult fantasizing and how they'd like to be able to harshly punish children for minor infringements, I assume they're the sort of person who enjoys thinking about that a bit more than is normal.

Yeah, my crystal ball wasn't working. My bad. Maybe look at him when looking to aportion blame rather than me? I stayed. I supported them. I worked.

I am glad your children are perfect. Mine aren't. Things got tricky for a while. Not my fault at all.