To think the government need to make disruptive pupil behaviour the parents' problem not the school's?

[GoodChocolate]

Low level and more serious disruptive behaviour is having a serious impact on children's education and teachers' health and wellbeing.
I propose a very, very consistent system of mini -exclusions whereby for every instance of low level disruptive behaviour (eg talking when they are not supposed to be talking )
The following procedure applies

1)the child has 3 chances a day.one initial warning One final warning and on the third occasion the child is sent to the office and the parents sre summoned.
2) The parent must be at the school within 60 minutes of the call
3) From the time the child leaves the school they are not allowed back until both
a) a full 24 (not counting weekends) has elapsed.
AND
b) the parent has completed an hour long very interactive virtual parenting course.Tbis happens every time the child receives a mini exclusion

If the parent fails to present themselves at tge school within the 60minutes this is treated as child abandonment and an escalating series of fines imposed, followed eventually by prosecution
If the course isnt done in time for the child go return to school after the 24 hour mini exclusion, then this is treated as unauthorised absence.
In cases of hitting ,swearing. Spitting etc no chances are given.
The parents and their employers are going to getboretty sick of this pretty quickly and sort their kids out.

Ok so why isn’t it working? Why are mental illness and violent behaviour at school through the roof?

Is it? I’d suggest in terms of mental health we are simply measuring it more. Secondary school was far more dangerous to students in the 90s when. I was there

That was my post and what I expect changes depending on which year group I’m teaching. This year I am teaching Scottish primary four so the children are aged seven and eight. I expect them to be able to listen with still hands and feet for a 10 minute input - a 10 minute task is a reasonable expectation at this age if you look at the developmental average. I expect a child who has a plan which allows them to use a fidget toy to be using it quietly and not hitting anyone else over the head with it or battering it repeatedly off a desk.

Children in my classroom have many opportunities to move through throughout the day, in fact the majority of learning at this age and stage is active and cooperative. Textbook work or work that is done sitting down at a desk is done for a maximum of around 15 minutes. This is a timeframe that a NT child of this age should be able to cope with easily. I also expect a child of this age to be able to listen to a story and play a simple game. To say please and thank you to the dinner ladies. To wash their hands without support. To put on velcro shoes and a zip jacket independent of me. To eat with a fork and spoon.

Here’s what I don’t expect. And these are just examples from the previous two weeks. I don’t expect to be called a fucking cunt at work because I have asked somebody not to stand on a table. (They were on a table because our school iPads don’t have Roblox and I can’t/wont download it.) I don’t expect to be assaulted at work by having things thrown at me for reminding someone that there is a line for lunch and they can’t skip to the front of it. I don’t expect to be bitten by an 8 year-old in mainstream because I won’t let them assault their peer. I don’t expect to have to evacuate my class for their own safety.

Because school is the first place many children ever hear the word no and they can’t cope, for a start.

How old was the child who called you a fcking cnt?

Can you expel them for that?

8 😕 and it’s obviously not their fault, he’s hearing that from somewhere! We can’t expel at all anymore. We can exclude internally or externally but where there is social work involvement or issues within the family the local authority prefer us not to.

Of course not an 8yr olds fault.. I expect the father calls the mother one, and or probably calls the child one. So depressing, again.

You can't expel at al anymore. Says it all.

Mostly because a lot of those kids actually have to be and stay in school, but there are many ,many factors. Some positive, some negative depending on how we view them.

For example, witnessing, or being victim of the violence you mentioned can cause or exacerbate mental health issues.

Being nearly impossible to leave school at 16 and getting a job that you can work your way up in.

We don’t institutionalise or consider children uneducable anymore.

Less adequate provision for a myriad of needs, combined with an increase in needs.

The lack of corporal punishment and easily excluding kids.

No one giving a shit about abuse, kids that disappeared, just dropped out, got pregnant at 15, got married, “chose” prostitution etc.

Services that are severely stretched and underfunded that barely intervene , and when they do it is much too late.

I mean… there were only 60 children permanently excluded in Scotland in 2010/2011 , this dropping to 21 in 2012/2013 , which then dropped to 5 for the next two years, then 3 then 1, until indeed no children were permanently excluded last year. Did it really make that much of a difference?

Temporary exclusions are different, and in the tens of thousands.

I don't know. 3 kids in my year at school were expelled over the years, and others in other years. It was all pretty run of the mill, usually after 3 suspensions (or something like that), I think they then went to 'special school'. Perhaps there are no special schools anymore, so nowhere for pupils to go, they can't expel them. Magnificent educational planning.

Temporary exclusions without an end game, must be pretty useless. Days off in all but name. Making it even more difficult when they return to school. Great stuff.

This 2025 pisa cohort arent as much the problem as the later born ones.They werent the ones going to school in nappies unable to speak properly! Mass inclusion of childten who have no business being in a mainstream classroom hadntn properly started and has even now not fully hit.

It was inclusion in name only and a good excuse to shut all the special schools. On that, we agree on.

I’m just saying that “we can’t exclude anymore” isn’t the answer some people claim it is. Like i said , going from 60 to 0 doesn’t actually make the difference some people claim it does. It just doesn’t.

No you can't expell them even in high school when they are literally strangling another child (my ds) for no reason other than the treacher asking the class to read a passage and the victim was closest to the perp, why because the perp has a right to an education and its SNP policy

Its strange because ds school was able to apparently exclude several children for destroying the teachers room they broke in trashed it bragged about it and were gone

Was this in Scotland? The landscape in Scotland and England is quite different when it comes to permanently excluding pupils. In England just shy of 10k pupils were excluded last year whereas there were none in Scotland.

No England this child acted like an absolute shit head though to be honest totally enabled by his parents in primary he destroyed things beat children up zero consequences his mum worked at the school so they never bothered to suspend him because they would be down a staff member he went to secondary with the same mindset got suspended several times then vanished before Christmas (he destroyed a couple of rooms i thought it was just one ds said it was more!) another child who was an absolute bully didn't make it to October his mom removed him because the school kept "picking on him" like being told no is the issue here

The first child im hoping actually sorted himself out he was a good kid at one point bright talented etc his mom is spiteful and hateful she battered him the school refused to believe that

Second child threatened to scalp and rape me at age 11/12 because I said no to him kicking my son out of an online gaming party (ds started i was supervising) his nan called me and said her grandson would never ever say such a thing....I wasnt kind and said keep that attitude up you will be visiting him in prison 🙄

From personal experience, some children who are really struggling, but cannot get an EHCP or are waiting years for an assessment, or are on the education authority merry go round of obfuscation and delay, end up in just about affordable, small, private schools where they manage very well. However, the rising costs and the closure of many small independent schools has blocked this route for many children. Specialist state schools are not all the same. One size does not fit all. Just because a child ticks one box in the list of disabilities doesn't mean the other disabilities can just be ignored.
Inadequate provision together with lack of parenting in some families has created an absolute mess and all children suffer.

Agree. We are so soft. Everything starts at home. You can instantly see children and adults that are a credit to their parents.

Your children are your responsibility.

You shouldn't be having to deal with any of that.
Regardless of the reasons for their behaviour, whether it's poor parenting, emotional difficulties, or SEN, those children should not be in mainstream schools disrupting the education of everyone else. Schools should have the ability to permanently exclude them.

And send them where?

Well clearly there is a need to create schools that can deal with them.
But the immediate priority should be to ensure that the education of the many is not disrupted by the behaviour of the few.