DD18 and DH48 arguing

[13amielsaoranna]

First post ever.

This afternoon, dd18 and dh48 who is the father of dd had an argument over what seemed like nothing.
I will say that dd can be argumentative at times and winds me up at times, also I feel dh treats her differently to ds17 who is quiet and laid back and never really argues. This argument ended in dh roaring and shouting at dd who does stand up for herself, dh is screaming at her to 'shut up' and he can't stand her answering back. He leaves to go out somewhere in the car, she goes up to her room, she later comes down very upset, and is crying quite alot, I will say that dd is not a cryer and it was a shock to see her like this.
I feel like an arsehole because if I saw a much older man shouting this way at at 18yr old girl/young lady in the street I really think I would have stepped in and asked if she was okay/needed help. Yet for my own daughter I stay in the adjacent room and listen to it escalate for a minute. Im not at all scared that my dh would ever be physical with dd or myself, I know he would never do that, yet I feel like I should have gone through to diffuse the situation but maybe I subconsciously never as I know he would turn on me and say I always take her side.
I will say my dh is 99% of the time a quiet man, doesnt like drama but I feel over the yrs he's turning into his dad, can't take a joke anymore, feels like any banter at work is people picking on him and just lacks the ability to have a laugh at himself anymore.
Not sure what my aibu is, but I'm still dwelling on it, and I know he is, he hasn't even gone up to say goodnight to them or shout up goodnight to them, despite their age it's what he does but not tonight!

I worry if I died, and dd in the future had a boyfriend/partner/husband who screamed and shouted at her like this, would she just accept this as normal because her own dad has treated her like this a couple of times, and not feel able to tell her dad about it.

We're all just carrying on as if nothings happened, last time he lost his temper he felt awful and apologised. I hate this situation.

my dad and i got on well but my goodness we would have have liads of arguements/debates but he never shouted at me like dh did to dd. Advise??

Gosh she really isn't a demanding little brat, thats quite hurtful to read. She is thoughtful, kind, caring, thinks of others and has a great sense of humour.

But maybe she has been allowed to rule the roost a little, which is our fault.

She sounds like she was being obnoxious and demanding but DH should control himself better.

Some of the comments are OTT as usual on here but I'd definitely be telling him how upset she was and they may both be able to learn from this.

This has given me something to think about, thankyou

It shouldn't be hurtful to read, it should be shameful.

I'd apologise to her today and say things need to change for the whole family.

I replied up thread to say teenagers are annoying and maybe he snapped. But having read your update I think the fault lies with your husband. Simply, this level of yelling was completely disproportionate to your daughters actions. It's hard to know how annoying she was being - she might have mildly pointed out that she didn't ask him to move, or she might have said it in a tone of voice that sounded like she was arguing. But it's a huge escalation to go from that, to yelling.

I really think therapy might help your husband here. There is clearly a lot to unpick about his own childhood. And he might need help to understand why something so minor triggers him so much. He needs to learn techniques to speak in a disagreement without raising his voice, insulting or being aggressive. He needs to re-frame 'talking back'...your daughter is technically an adult, does he really think being an older adult means he is right 100pc of the time and has no right to respond? She might have done it in a rude way but she was only stating a fact. Who else is she not allowed to state a fact or an opinion to? At what age will she be allowed to? Does he really want to raise a female to blindly do what an older male tells them and not argue back ever?

My dad was very occasionally like this particularly when he was stressed at work. I remembwr one time I was 18 when he was yelling at me for planning to leave the keys in the family car when I popped into the house for a few minutes. He went mental at me saying it was a stupid idea, what was i thinking leaving a car unattended with keys in, it would get stolen, I shouldn't be careless with people's things, maybe I shouldn't be allowed to drive the car. I tried to tell him that my sibling was going to be staying in the car, and that was the only reason I'd been leaving it unsecured, but he shouted at me for answering back and wouldn't listen, it just made him angrier. He had thought we were all getting out. The injustice of it all has stayed with me. I didnt deseeve to be yelled at, and we could have had a calm discussion. It didn't spoil our relationship as it was out of character but I think it would have if if had been a regular occurrence.

I wasn't in the room at the time, I'm half hearing what's happening from another room.

Alot of good advice and things to think about, thankyou for your reply.
I too have memories of arguing with my dad and the injustice of a small amount of these arguments. Nobody can be perfect or 100% right in what do/say all of the time.

OP, you have given a lot more context so I want to point out how strongly I believe that no one member of a family can be allowed to rule the roost.

My eldest tried that and it caused enormous stress because I simply wouldn't allow it.
He had to be firmly put in his place on that score.

Your husband may be stressed, triggered, and a bit depressed, but his reaction cannot be allowed to stand.

Likewise you need to have a firm conversation with her, how she treats others, and step up the parenting of her.

Having a golden child, demanding dominator in the house is toxic for everyone.

A chat with them both separately and a sit down together would be a good idea.

Don't allow this to just be moved on from, without comment.

Everyone needs to learn to be kinder and do better.

With young adults residing at home for years longer, it really is critical that courtesy and respect are bedded into interactions with each other.

Your dd will remember you sitting out of the way as much as she remembers her df losing it with her

if you don’t stick up for your own kids what is the actual point of being a parent?

"Speaking to my dd she says in the past when shes by herself with him it's okay like when they were going to cinema but if it's the 3 of them, dh, dd, ds she says she feels like dh trys to make fun of her to get ds to be onside eith him and laugh at her"

I think there's two separate problems between your husband and daughter: one the shouting incident, but possibly the bigger one that she feels singled out by your husband when it's the three of them and picked on.

The thing is I don't think she is knowingly trying to rule the roost or wanting to, but her behaviour does make it so.

What things did you do with your DS to stamp it out?

She is by no means the golden child, shes not treated as such. I love my kids equally and share interests with each one. My DD definitely favours me snd I wonder whether DH is affected by this, who knows.

My dad clashed terribly with my brother, they couldnt be in same room at times, maybe alpha male situation, but they had a good relationship once he moved out.

"she pushes my buttons too, but I'm better at controlling itsnd bite my tongue alot."
Well, this is the problem then!
Why do you always bite your tongue when she is trying to goad you? Your weak tiptoeing round has done her no favours- you have created an obnoxious adult who thinks the world revolves around her whims.
This could have beenr a salutary lesson to her, but now it looks as though you have undone all that!
Part of loving your daughter is making her happy and defending her, the othermuch harder part is tough love, calling out her shit, shaping herr into a decent likeable human being who has the qualities to get on in the world.

Are you both doing the second part or just your dh?

Your dh lost his rag and then hasn’t been grown enough to apologise.

I also hate that defending one’s self or giving your side is seen as answering back if it’s happens to be a child even an adult child.

You heard an adult man shouted at your daughter and just listened from another room and your more oh he will be sad that she cried.

If u read the whole thread you will see someone else accused me of only caring about DH feeling sad. I corrected them and said I'm not at all fussed it DH does feel upset, I'm only saying it will upset him as he won't like to hear that he upset her so much that she cried. She's not a crier do this is unusual fir her to do so

Your dd was annoying in this instance. Your DH and DS were happy doing their thing until your dd interrupted their Zen 🧘. She wanted both their spaces, one wasn’t enough. I can see why your DH was annoyed and her answer would have annoyed most people.

She needed shouting at tbf. Maybe she’ll think twice before bulldozing her way through the house.

I know you'll accuse me of backtracking but I do tell her off, I do tell her it's not on to say that, talk with that tone etc etc and other times I bite my tongue as I csnt be bothered with another argument.
Is she the only person in the world that has an argumentative personality trait.
Can forgetful people help being forgetful can a shy person help being shy. Any on mumsnet care to admit they are argumentative? Have a argumentative family member/friend/Work colleague????

Yes me too. It stays with you doesn’t it? One day you’d do “x” and get shouted at for that, the next day you’d do “y” which had never been an issue before, and be shouted at for that.

I remember getting shouted out for declaring I didn’t like a certain food that I never liked in my entire life still don’t but apparently I was a lier and wrong and I ate it last time I was just being awkward 🙄

If something was broken I must of been the last person to use it because they saw me at some point in the last week touch it. Be that a fork or the family computer.

Too loud, not joining in, having my own opinions, sharing was showing off not sharing was selfish. Too smart, too dumb.

weirdly an odd insult was I’d make a great politician because apparently I couldn’t give a straight answer because I’d explain myself also see talking back 🤣 oh but then I’d cry because I was shouted at so I was turning on the waterworks so get sympathy.

I spelt it out to him that he was not the most important in the house, as the eldest.
No one person was.
Everyone in the house had to be respectful of shared spaces and he didn't have any special entitlement to the large Den where the PS4 was situated.
That I wouldn't tolerate his lack of consideration for me and others.
It was a process and it was several conversations for sure.
He knew I meant business and I also became a lot less obliging with lifts, favourite food etc.,

Expectations being spelt out and follow through with consequences is very important.

Everyone knows where they stand.

So this. She sounds very demanding/entitled. The minute she gets the piano (despite not demanding it), she then wants the kitchen space. You’ve repeatedly said you let things slide with her, OP. She does seem to have main character syndrome and like she is in fact spoilt, sorry! You say you think your dh is normally calm, but she is pushing buttons. They’ll probably be best mates once she moves out. Your ds sounds-from an outside perspective-like he’s getting the raw deal in this. I know you say she’s not the golden child, but that’s what I’m hearing, despite your protestations. 🤷‍♀️

This

I can see both sides.

Your daughter sounds very annoying, like she wants to rule the roost and command the spaces and what others can and can't do. And when they try to accommodate her, she ups the ante and pushes for something else as well. So it's not surprising that another family member pushed back and got annoyed.

But your husband lost the moral high ground by "shouting and roaring". Ideally he should have said "you'll have to wait your turn for the kitchen, I've already given up the piano as you wanted a go" and refused to engage with any further moans and demands. (I do appreciate it's extremely irritating when someone keeps on and on needling at you.)

I also think the "answering back" thing is out of order. Maybe that pushed some buttons for me because my father always said it, even once we were young adults as a way of shutting down an argument or debate even when he was quite patently in the wrong. It's like saying "you don't get to have an opinion or a preference or a right to explain a misunderstanding or defend an unfair accusation because I'm the man of the house, end of". He gets to answer but thinks she should be forbidden from doing so. If she's being rude or selfish or disrespectful then he should tell her so, but trying to forbid her from speaking "because I'm the father" is so out of order.

He needs to repair with her else she will struggle to have a relationship with him in adulthood.

If DH would genuinely be upset to know how distressed DD was as a result of his behaviour, perhaps he can stop being so aggressive in future?

I don’t agree with your DH shouting. That obviously needs to be nipped in the bud.

But I agree with PPs that your daughter sounds bossy and ungrateful. There is a big problem with you framing rudeness and answering back as “defending herself”.

From what you’ve said, her initial behaviour / comments were not provoked by any need to defend herself but a bit bratty and selfish.

I wonder how often you let her get away with this and tell DH she’s just standing up for herself, rather than working with him to instill some manners. Perhaps your DH feels additionally frustrated because you are taking her side when in fact she is being argumentative.

FWIW, if I were you I would have come in early and supported DH to tell DD that she was being bossy and ungrateful and not to adopt that tone with her brother and her father.