Where do you think Jewish people come from?

[BlessedIsTheFruit]

Antisemitism is at full volume at the moment and I caveat this post with saying that I have absolutely no wish to make Jewish MNers feel uncomfortable but as an an atheist with no connection to Israel this really makes my blood boil.

I see so many SM posts about the Jews having 'colonized' Israel and Judea & Samaria, not having any claim to the land, not being indigenous and of course being 'Europeans settlers'.

They can't answer where they actually come from though so I thought anyone on here who shares their views might be able to give an answer and how they came to that conclusion.

I understand that Jews are an ethnicity with Judaism as their religion. Being Jewish is not a religion. Jews are still today spread out all over the world with the majority living in Israel and the US.

This has come into focus since the UK Government sanctions on Jewish businesses in Judea & Samaria recently with Jewish communities living there classed as 'illegal settlers'.

It's almost as if Jews and Judea have no connection at all.

So AIBU to ask where the Jews originated from if not from there?

I don't feel this belongs on the CITME board as although the war in Gaza has amplified beliefs, this not directly about that.

That we dont tend to look to where racial or ethnogroups lived thousands of years ago as part of a judgement as to where they should live now.

That would be like saying a black british kid who's never left leicestershire and his parents are from luton, is "african" because he's black. We don't do that in the uk... if anything we'd consider that racist...

Well they found other places to live in the intervening 2000 years

And were frequently massacred or driven out. In England. In Spain. In Russia. Everywhere. What do you think drove Zionism?

Melting Point by Rachel Cockerell

i found this book a fascinating read about the political origins of the nation state of Israel - the Zionist movement of the late nineteenth century and the search for a homeland against a series of violent pogroms - especially in Russia. I didn’t know any of this.

I would love to live in a world where everyone could (peacefully) go wherever they wanted and I don't share your resentment about imperialism being considered morally bankrupt these days but whatever that poster thinks of fixed borders I find it hard to believe that they are genuinely stateless.

I honestly think this is a moot point. It doesn't justify the abuse to the people currently living there, which is what the sanctions are made in objection to.

I've always understood the Stork drops them off in the vegetable patch, like most babies? I think if you plant Jerusalem artichokes rather than cabbages it's meant to increase your chances, but that might be an old wive's tale tbh!

And?

Nothing is wrong with claiming Israeli citizenship. But stealing the land and the homes from families that have lived there and owned that land for hundreds of years, IS wrong.

Not to mention, waging war against them to reduce their resistance to fighting for said land and homes.

As others have said, I come from the south of England. The south of England doesn't owe me land and a home. And if I steal someone else's, I'll go to jail. Rightfully so.

@NancyThompson Israel existed as far back as the Iron Age. Not in today's 1948 format, but before the concept of modern countries as we know them. Israel existed as a collection of small kingdoms (as did what's now the United Kingdom, around that time). Modern Israels occupies a significant proportion of the same land as ancient Israel. So, all things considered, it's inaccurate to say that Israel didn't exist before 1948. That's why there are so many references to Israel and the Israelites in the Bible. And Jesus was from that area, obviously, and he was Jewish.

Comparisons with other nationalities and religions cannot really be made because Judaism is not a nationality and not just a religion. It is ethnic, cultural and religious and doesn't really conform to modern ideas of categorisation.

The question of where they originated is completely irrelevant in my opinion. It's true that they are indigenous to Israel, because despite 2000 years of exile for most, they have retained an ethnic and cultural coherence that means there is still continuity with the Jews of 2000 years ago. It's also true that many come from Israel itself or other places in the middle East and therefore are not European in any sense.

But none of that is really important. What matters is who lives there now. All the arguing over recent and ancient history is stupid.

Do you mean in the same way Israel is massacring and driving out the Palestinians?

You stated that British is not an ethnicity. My ethnicity is officially white British.

The problem with this is that it ignores the holocaust, where millions of Jews were murdered because they were told that even those who seemed (and felt themselves to be) fully integrated, were in fact not European.

I think if your parents and grandparents had lived through that it would be no more than good sense or even self preservation to always keep at least a suspicion at the back of your mind as to whether you were genuinely accepted as European by those around you. And to have a plan B for if it all went wrong again.

'Stealing'? That's a huge distortion.

I don't think it's @NancyThompson you need to be pointing that out to. It's Israel's critics who think everything started in 1948 where those big bad nasty Israelites stole people's homes.

They paid reparations to Israel and also to individuals affected by the Holocaust.

The ignorance on this thread is staggering. Didn't you guys learn this stuff in school? Doesn't anyone read the news or even just Google stuff?

And I still can't get over the fact that a pp actually thought they don't have a fixed nationality. 😱

She means that people using the G word about Gaza don't have the first clue what they're talking about, and that cynically misrepresenting a conflict that is so obviously a war by every metric for political reasons* is a huge insult to actual victims of genocide. And a disgusting lie to troll Jews (actual victims of genocide).

*There is a currently a global campaign led by jihadis and propped up by useful idiots of the Left to de-legitimise the State of Israel as a prelude to it's ilimanation, so lying about about Israel committing the crime of crimes helps them achieve this goal.

Also, your username - very apt.

Millions of people have no official nationality.

Started with a British nationality. Switched to Irish. Could also, in theory, qualify for American and Portuguese. In a few years time I may have a Romania passport. I love being not being defined by a little coloured booklet.

I’m Jewish. Great grandparents came to UK late 1800s escaping ant semitism (pogroms) in Eastern Europe - both my parents and my DHs parents have very similar backgrounds - some ancestors from Poland some Ukraine and some Russia.

But yes the religion originated in what we call Eretz Yisrael - the land of Israel - not to be confused with the modern state as the borders don’t exactly match, eg some of what is now Jordan is part of the land, and the area around Eilat would not be included. Every year during say the Passover Seder for generations we have said “next year in Jerusalem”. In the daily prayers - again thousands of years old we pray to return to Zion.

There have been Jews who have been there since but yes other people also lived there also.

👏 👏

Fair enough, that plan B exists. It's called Israel and you can find it on a map.

The problem is that there are certain segments of the Israeli population who think that the internationally agreed borders of Israel are in the wrong place and so, with the blessing and support of the Israeli government, are crossing those borders and occupying land that they have dubious claims over.

Eh, why would Muslims come from Saudi Arabia? You do know Muslim isn't an ethnicity?! Do you really not notice that Malaysian Muslims look a bit different to Nigerian Muslims, or to Indian Muslims, or to Syrian Muslims?! Go you - you really don't see colour!

Islam started in Saudi, but then Arabic Muslim imperialists conquered vast swathes of territory, and the people who already lived in those territories were converted to the religion. Often the Arab conquerors didn't breed with the natives either as they considered them beneath them, so the natives mostly retain their own ethnicity, just with a new religion on top. Same as Christianity - Christians come in all colours too, you know! Morocco has one of the clearest examples, with the Arabs living predominantly in the north and the natives (Berbers) mostly living in the mountains, and the desert to the south (the less desirable bits).

British is a nationality. White is an ethnicity.

Shalom ❤️