Where do you think Jewish people come from?

[BlessedIsTheFruit]

Antisemitism is at full volume at the moment and I caveat this post with saying that I have absolutely no wish to make Jewish MNers feel uncomfortable but as an an atheist with no connection to Israel this really makes my blood boil.

I see so many SM posts about the Jews having 'colonized' Israel and Judea & Samaria, not having any claim to the land, not being indigenous and of course being 'Europeans settlers'.

They can't answer where they actually come from though so I thought anyone on here who shares their views might be able to give an answer and how they came to that conclusion.

I understand that Jews are an ethnicity with Judaism as their religion. Being Jewish is not a religion. Jews are still today spread out all over the world with the majority living in Israel and the US.

This has come into focus since the UK Government sanctions on Jewish businesses in Judea & Samaria recently with Jewish communities living there classed as 'illegal settlers'.

It's almost as if Jews and Judea have no connection at all.

So AIBU to ask where the Jews originated from if not from there?

I don't feel this belongs on the CITME board as although the war in Gaza has amplified beliefs, this not directly about that.

I don’t trust Erdogan either. The question was about legal equality enshrined in law of a country. As a Jewish woman, I am well aware that laws don’t mean a person is actually equal socially, economically or politically in practice. This doesn’t just affect women and minority religions or ethnicities but also other marginalised people - disabled, gay/lesbian/bi, etc

Several history books. It’s kind of obvious when you have dozens of battles between invaders and defenders that this isn’t merely a political takeover.

Here is a short history online, just to show how easy it is to find this information:
https://www.history.org.uk/primary/resource/3865/anglo-saxons-a-brief-history?srsltid=AU7gw4W1t5wEQXOQywrKoOYrBAMZ8wk0GjKmR90NWEGWdZ8N9ZLlU_0p

It’s in the language- The word for foreigner and enemy was Seax in southern Briton, Sassenachs in Scotland and Saesneg in Wales ( the last two still endure) the modern day name of ‘Saxon’ comes from the distinctive short sword these multiple tribes carried.

It’s written in the DNA as well that the populations with the highest % Briton DNA are in the west & north.

Don’t forget that the Anglo-Saxons had a habit of enslaving Romano-British (Briton) women and once they had children those were then anchors keeping them from fleeing west or north. So the whole ‘some stayed’ and ‘adopted the Germanic language and culture’ and the population ‘integrated’ was done by conquest not by peaceful means. There were several battles as the Anglo Saxon invasion occurred slowly over decades until the Anglo Saxons established kingdoms in what would become England (land of the Angles).

There was no genocide but enslavement. However, all the landowners- from kings down to farmers were killed, expelled or enslaved. It wasn’t until the Norman conquest of the Anglo Saxons that slavery was gradually replaced with serfdom.

I don’t for one second believe that ‘millions’ of ‘Arabs’ and ‘their distant cousins’ want to kill me or other Jews. I would like to think a good future would include everyone being able to live freely wherever they want to. Such a future can only come about gradually, and why shouldn’t Israel become the role model for peace and tolerance? We have the best military in the Middle East and the backing of the most powerful country in the world. The problem is there is no political will for equality and freedom from Bibi and the parties he depends on to stay in power. They are more interested in expansionism, ethnic cleansing and keeping the Israelis in Israel in a constant state of fear to justify continuous war. It’s one of the many reasons I will likely not return to Israel in my lifetime. I feel like where we are now is pre1985 in terms of any hope of peace and amity in the Middle East. And maybe it will never happen. The only times it did was when the entire region was part of a larger empire and even then various peoples would rebel or revolt, including my ancestors in 135AD against the Romans.

@NullaEffugium ,

‘I don’t for one second believe that ‘millions’ of ‘Arabs’ and ‘their distant cousins’ want to kill me or other Jews’.

I think that, were you to go into the Palestinian areas today (or Iran, although they are not Arab) and offer them a magic button which would kill all the Jews in the World, they would have no issue or hesitation to press it.

So, I think the one state solution is an aspiration for the distant future. It needs to be based on a comprehensive 2 state solution where both states trade, swap skills etc until, eventually it makes more sense to have one state than two.

In many ways, in the era of superstates, it would make sense for the EU to become a federation and for the U.S and Canada to become one country (on fairer terms than Trump is suggesting!). It might be the only way to stop the World being run by corporations and AI. That doesn’t really belong on this thread, though, except to say that if France and Germany can’t form a ‘one state solution’ , it will take at least a century for this to be possible with Israel and Palestine.

I don't really understand the aspiration for a single state at all. Both groups live in largely distinct areas (though there is a wider question about the exact borders). The Israelis don't want to dismantle their country and the Palestinians don't want to merge with it.

Its seems like a weird academic aspiration imposed by outsiders or a cover for the extremists to dismantle Israel.

@ErroltheSwampDragon ,

You can look at that both ways.

Israel is currently dismantling Palestine. If the Palestinians were stronger, they would surely dismantle Israel,

Neither are good. So the way forward is a two state solution, guaranteeing both sides the ability to share the land.

But, ultimately, and this ultimately could be a century or more away (or never happen), in a utopian future where the Abrahamic religions realised that they had more in common than differences, the totality of Israel/Palestine is still a tiny country and would work much better as a single country with equal rights and aspirations for all.

(But, as I have hopefully made clear, I don’t think either side is nearly ready for that now.)

In as kind a way as possible because I think you are actually an intense optimist as opposed to anything else. I’m not entirely sure the Palestinians and the Israelis have that much in common at all. There is a stark difference between the way women and gay people are treated in Israel versus Palestine or Israel v Iran or Israel v Afghanistan or really anywhere in the area. I think probably most people just want to raise their kids and have enough to eat - as per everywhere in the world - but after that the differences get pretty dramatic.

Sorry, still not understanding why a single state would be better. By that logic, a single state dominating the entire Middle East would be better because it would have more power and be better able to compete but no one is arguing for that.

The Abrahamic religions dominate the majority of countries, do you mean it should be one country becauase there are so many important religious locations there? I don't think that particularly important. Two stable and safe states would be just as capable as enabling people of all religions to share these, if they were truly safe and if they weren't then why would anyone want to merge in the first place.

@Newbutoldfather
I think that, were you to go into the Palestinian areas today (or Iran, although they are not Arab) and offer them a magic button which would kill all the Jews in the World, they would have no issue or hesitation to press it.

I think that is awfully dark and very much what the leadership of Israel is trying to portray as true- Herzog and his comment on not one single innocent in Gaza (really? Not one?). That’s just impossible. No ethnicity is ever 100% down to the last man, woman and child wanting to genocide every man, woman and child of another ethnicity. Even the Germans weren’t 100% Nazis. History is full of Germans saving Jews from the Nazi regime during the Holocaust, some even ending up in the death camps with us.

Yes, amongst Palestinians there are terrorists with genocidal intentions towards us, but most human beings just want to live their lives in peace. Raise families. Be with friends. Expand their horizons. Help one another.

I do not think a single state is a solution, if it were Israel would have annexed the lands decades ago instead of walling off Palestinian lands and slowly encroaching and appropriating it while displacing Palestinians. Annexation would have meant integration, living together under the same governance as right now Palestinians are under military law & occupation, whereas Israelis are under civilian law. It’s why Arab Israelis are living like regular people with all the freedoms and rights of a citizen.

Oh I understand, I can see a long distant future with a ME modelled after the EU. If France, Germany and UK can get over their past hatred and centuries of wars why not Israel and a future Palestine?

A super-state entity where Israel still has sovereignty and self-rule, but the benefit of not being isolated and surrounded by enemies.

We can only hope and pray.

Yes, thank you for all the patronising. Somewhat hilariously, what you linked shows that you are wrong. You said that the Anglo-Saxons expelled the Romano-British from their country, which is not true and which the source you linked says nothing of.

Not sure what that means that "Israel is dismantling Palestine" - how can that be when the State of Palestine is so recent? In fact, Israel enabled that through the Oslo Accords. Is the current government working to prevent a viable Palestinian state? Absolutely. But dismantiling? No, because it doesn't really exist (not saying Palestinian identitiy doesn't exist but there has never been a Palestine to dismantle)

No, you're not undersanding and as a result you're constantly trying to push false analogies to make your points since you don't understand the history of the region or of the Jewish people.

It's not just about being a minority in historic mandatory Palestine. It's about being able to have self determination for the Jewish people and also to serve as a place of safety for Jewish people living as minorities elsewhere. If there had been an israel in 1938 instead of 1948, there would be many more Jews alive today.

Plus you only need to basic demography to understand how Jews will become a minority again.

Exactly. I mean look at Belgium and Canada and all the problems they have keeeping their countries togetehr with different languages. And this is the middle east where no one can give me a model of a multi-ethnic liberal democracy (beyond Israel, whcih for all its flaws is the best we've got). Israel is rich, developed, strong democratic institutions (still, despite Netanyahu's best efforts). Palestine is not. How can you put that together into one country?
I'm not against the principle, but I just don't see how it could possibly work.

Hmmm, it's a good question. They're not that distinct any more to be honest. The economics are completely intertwined.
It's funny, there are some on the Israeli left who want one country. And there are some on the right who also want one country (although their vision defintiely wouldn't meet Palestinian legititmate desire for self determination). There are some who want a two state solution. But, honestly, I think most Israelis don't see any solution but managing the situation. After 7/10 (and the Hezbollah attacks from south Lebanon which Israel also had withdrawn from) they don't trust the Palestinians not to use any move for statehood as a cover for attacking Israel, especially with Iran still mixing in the background. It's very depressing.

You asked me for a source so how is it patronising to give you what you asked for? I don’t have the many library reference books I have read to hand, but searched a source for you.

It doesn’t show that I was wrong because I did not say the Anglo Saxons had expelled the Romano British, I said they tried to expel all the Romano-British.

Hilarious indeed. I won’t patronise you by explaining the difference between doing something and trying to do something.