AIBU to think if we need to politely ask men not to rape women (or men), then we don't want such people in the UK? PART 2

[CoventryCity]

'Don't rape, sexually assault or make kissing noises' at people, asylum seekers warned in guidance about living in UK

UK arrivals have been told to treat women equally, not sexually assault partners or have sex with children in a new Home Office pamphlet. As well as the guidebook, a series of posters have also been designed by the government.'

https://news.sky.com/story/asylum-seekers-warned-not-to-make-kissing-sounds-at-people-in-new-guidance-about-living-in-uk-13574744

Previous thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5568695-aibu-to-think-if-we-need-to-politely-ask-men-not-to-rape-women-or-men-then-we-dont-want-such-people-in-the-uk?page=40&reply=154338993&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I have never come across anyone who says "that if Western women get what for then it’s a possibly unfortunate by-product of showing compassion to fleeing refugees, or even something that we all deserve for past national sins" or who claims "you’re lying, there is no migrant crime" either online or in real life. Certainly not on MN. I think you are twisting what has been said to suit your agenda.

But it’s hard to know who is the risk and the checks aren’t there. So supporting the system we have is accepting a risk of that violence.

And that’s the crux of it.

Many posters demand “Links!” or “Show me figures!” Then on this particular issue they are coy or say statistics aren’t necessary/can’t be compiled etc etc.

The only problem with this post is that it implies that in white countries sexual violence against women is unusual, when it is commonplace. That women are not second class citizens, when we still are. You are quite right that every nonwhite country has issues with crime, war, oppression of women, but at the same time you fail to acknowledge we have plenty of that here too. Europeans killing Europeans.

Now yes, our country is nominally better than other countries or at least our CPS figures are often reduced by police NFAing and cultural pressures for victims to not report crime, but my point is that not all European countries are better than all non European countries.

Furthermore, it is the very definition of racism to pre-judge an individual based on their nationality and the state of the country they are coming from. Just because a certain country has high gun crime, the majority of women can’t get an abortion, child & forced marriage is ongoing, domestic violence isn’t taken seriously, and 1 in 3 are sexually assaulted, plus for children under 12 the leading causes of death are gunshot wound or fatal abuse by a parent, etc.

We should not judge all Americans by the state of the USA and assume any immigrating are going to be wife beating rapists who are likely to go on a murder spree in a primary school with a rifle.

Yes, there is preliminary data showing certain crimes by immigrants of certain nationalities might be over-represented but it’s not been thoroughly analysed yet to adjust for factors that could be causing higher crime other than immigration. Factors like sex, age, exposure to violence, being a victim of human trafficking by organised crime, poverty, etc.

Other countries have been mentioned, but again it’s either raw data that when it’s been fact checked and analysed are really not significant. In addition, various individual cases have been mentioned which are single data points can likely be countered by dozens of similar crimes by local British. Because of the political furor caused by Reform, it’s newsworthy when an immigrant commits a crime, but it’s not newsworthy when it’s a regular British person. It’s a bit like how female serial killers often dominate the news - it’s because they are rare and it’s especially horrifying not because there is a female serial killer problem.

Yes, funny how transparency isn’t that important all of a sudden.

Thank you for the thread. Checking in.

The checks are there and risks are assessed.
We accept risk of violence every day for every man.
Ofc it’s not perfect, that’s why we still have violent crime.
To expect it to be perfect for immigrants when we can’t even do it for our own sons and partners is unrealistic.

Ok it’s still not a good enough system. The victims matter, the woman attacked with a glass matters. And the other victims. Design a system that doesn’t demand they, and we, just put up with it.

Can you describe what checks are there for a man entering the UK from Afghanistan or Sudan? If they pass all other countries to enter what crime records are assessed?

The UK can’t just overhaul immigration policy because it’s tied up in legal obligations, international agreements, and a system that’s already overloaded. Even if politicians announce tougher rules, they still have to follow the Refugee Convention, the Human Rights Act, and the ECHR. None of that can be bypassed with a press release.

The UK also can’t remove people quickly without return agreements, and many countries won’t take their nationals back. Operationally, the system doesn’t have enough caseworkers, judges, detention space, or enforcement capacity. Add in the huge backlog and the fact that people have a legal right to appeal — often for months or years — and nothing moves fast, no matter what the government claims.

And until that entire process is actually reformed, the only “safeguarding” measures the government can roll out quickly are things like leaflets, awareness campaigns, and education programmes. It’s the easiest way for them to look like they’re “doing something” while the real structural issues — legal constraints, appeals, and system capacity — remain unchanged.

I agree it’s bit good enough for women,
But blaming around 30k asylum seekers for our country’s system instead of the 30m British men perpetuating it and the 1% of those that run it and set the rules for it, isn’t going to fix the system.

It’s just diverting attention away from the UK Government who are responsible for the system and are not interested in fixing it to the point that they are happy to scape goat people who have just arrived here.

No it’s saying the system is not good enough for women. You even agree with that. We can and should change it.

It’s just pointless.

@NullaEffugium 'The only problem with this post is that it implies that in white countries sexual violence against women is unusual'

No. Nope. Not at all. Your lack of logic in coming to that conclusion is pretty spectacular. On that basis - and on the basis we have nearly 2 full threads of posters saying why that isn't the case, I won't discuss with you any further, Literally groundhog day, there's clearly no point.

Great minds think alike!

Just said there’s no point.

Yes I agree with you. I will add the misleading idea that checks happen and that we even know everyone who is entering.

Good point. Quite the contrast.

And the legal people are making hay whilst the sun shines.

• not good enough

Well since we haven’t figured out how to change the violence prediction system within the UK, there is no chance we can change it for immigration checks.

Or a thread gets started with them, and they mass report, because they don't really want them if they say the wrong thing.

Of course we can. We can say no unless we have a decent background check.

Checks do happen on asylum seekers. They are not let out of the processing centres until their identity and criminal checks are done.

Ofc we don’t know everyone entering but that is a different category from the asylum seeking boat people.

Which we do already.