AIBU to think empty first class should be opened on crowded trains?

[boredsoscrollingonMNagain]

I was on a long journey this weekend , It was a 5 and a half hour journey with one change.

our first train was massively delayed , meaning we missed our next one. But , we coped and it’s all done now and we will get compensated .

However , I was really cross at this:

We had reserved seats on both trains. We don’t travel on trains with no reserved seats as my eldest is autistic and gets distressed with nowhere to sit. He prefers a certain seat, so we always try for that, but the main thing is he has a seat. The train was taken from 9 to 4 carriages so all reservations cancelled and this first train was a 2 hr journey for us. My husband wasn’t with us and we had large cases so I was stressed ! My eldest was obviously worried - luckily we found seats and all was ok . But , when the train came in I saw a carriage empty and my worry was getting these cases on alone and having no space , so I went to the empty carriage and was turned away because it was first class. We got on fine in the end, thanks to the help of lovely strangers and we got seats right next to first class and I could see in and it said all seats were available- not reserved - and maybe 2 people in the whole carriage. For the whole journey , the other carriages were like sardines - it was awful. They announced they couldn’t get the refreshment trolley out because it was so busy ( also it was during a heatwave ) . First class was empty. I saw a family - including a woman with a tiny baby in a carrier and young children, turfed out. I saw many families struggling to find places to sit.

Now , I understand if you have paid for first class and the carriage was full of people who hadn’t , you would be angry . I agree if you have paid first class you should be able to sit in it. But if it’s empty , why were people turfed out when everyone’s reserved seats were cancelled ? I would understand if first class was busy , so all were reserved and they kept that carriage for that reason - it costs a lot . I also would understand if maybe they usually had 2 first class carriages ( I don’t know if they do ) , took one off , so kept all the first class seats for those with first class tickets , but on a first come first served basis. But to have them all free , the whole journey , with lots of people - families coming back from holiday - who reserved seats for a long journey and lost them , standing and struggling - but then keep it empty and leave people standing , and actively turn people holding babies in arms away - I found this disgusting !

Just to add - this isn’t about me wanting to go in first class , we had seats , we were ok and I did offer my seat up too.

No, I'm afraid that's factually incorrect. As Poppinpoppinpopcorn highlighted the sheer number of standard class tickets as opposed to one first class or even less, have a carriage would make it impossible for a first class passenger to cover the overall operating and capital costs.

I disagree - I dont think its relevant to the point I was making, and i stand by that.

Clearly I am not the only one with this opinion, doesnt make you less entitled to yours but it also doesnt make your opinion a fact either.

Subsidised or not, if you have paid more for a premium product, whatever the product, you can reasonably expect it not to just be given to everyone else for free without it being devalued and not worth paying the extra for. In my opinion.

Depends on the train. Some first class coaches are usually pretty full on some services.

I agree.

My in laws live a 5 hour train ride away. We always come back late Sunday evening first class because it’s almost guaranteed to have the carriage to yourself so the kids can sleep. We pay for this because we are able to stay with family longer and have a peaceful journey. The last train on a Sunday is rarely anywhere near busy enough to declassify, but I would be wanting a refund if this happened.

But it's not about the number of carriages, the number of carriages you are on or off, it's irrelevant, some Taxpayers may not ever go on a train and they are still subsidising your travel as they are standard class tickets.

Arguably, it is something that should be scrapped as it's a privilege paid for by others, that are subsidising your privilege.

The information is factual though, it's a fact that the railways are heavily subsidised, that's not an opinion. The subsidy doesn't differentiate between 1st and standard class, it's a blanket approach and the 'fact' is your first class ticket doesn't cover the true cost.

How do you know it doesn't cover the full cost? If everyone paid the same amount as a first class ticket maybe there wouldn't need to be subsidies.

You haven’t “paid for a seat”, you have paid for a journey between two points. No rail company charges for booking seats, other apps that aren’t actually affiliated to any rail company may do. A ticket does not guarantee a seat, rules and regs regarding seats can be found in the National Conditions of Carriage.

I can see where you're coming from, but it would inordinately effect commuter trains – many of which are crammed like sardines, many of which are regularly delayed and may of which are taken down in carriage number. I don't think the price structure would make sense if it mainly affects these services.

Not 'my' ticket, I rarely travel first class unless my company pays, but i still maintain the right of other passengers to choose and enjoy the upgrade if thats their wish.

I have never argued that the tickets aren't subsidised, I am disagreeing with your opinion that because they are, everyone should be entitled to use them or that they should be scrapped. You are entitled to your opinion on that but I disagree, even though I travel in standard class 99% of the time

They opened up a whole first class carriage when I was travelling from London to Norwich once. We'd booked seats on an earlier train that had been cancelled and some seats were double booked, so the guard just let us all go in first class.

This was way back in the 80s though, so before it was all privatised.

What do you mean not your ticket? The subsidies don't differentiate l, of course your ticket- hilarious!

Just as a first class ticket doesn't cover the operational and capital cost of the ticket!

Because it is so heavily subsidised.

Opening first class distracts from the real issue - they need to put enough coaches on to meet demand. Letting a few people into first class on a packed train is like putting a sticking plaster on a severed artery.

Apologies, haven't RTFT but, I would be happy for 1st class to be opened up if those who paid 1st class were refunded the difference - compromise all round

How do you know that?. It may well cover the operational and capital cost per passenger.

How much is it subsidised per passenger mile?

There shouldn't even be first class. Same for everyone.

The entire rail infrastructure carries more than people. It carries a huge amount of goods, i.e. containers, cars, aggregates, waste, wood, etc. So you really can't just attribute the costs to passengers.

Lots of it has been re-privatised but no obvious benefits/improvements.

Seriously? Your previous post inferred my 'first class' ticket and I was simply saying not my ticket as I dont travel first class. You know this, but having been unable to pass your opinion off as fact, you are now trying to quote me out of context. Do you always respond this way when people dont agree with you? I'm too long in the tooth for daft games. I am happy to agree to disagree without resorting to this silliness, so I will leave it there.

Well I've read all your posts, and it seems that you need to respond to anyone who's opinion differs from yours.

My opinion is that if you want first class then pay for it.
We all know that 2nd class can be overcrowded and uncomfortable at times, it's a chance we take for paying the lower price. So when the inevitable happens, just suck it up.