To be disappointed that my ds has decided not to go to uni.

[Fearandanxiety]

Ds is 19 years old and has been on a GAP year and has worked full time in a pub and had a few holidays. He has a place at uni starting this September to study business management. He has started to get cold feet and said it was due to the amount of debt he would get from being at uni, but I think his girlfriend has been putting pressure on him not to go. My parents have offered to pay his tuition fees which is incredibly generous but he has decided today not to go. He has no alternative long term plan and I’m trying hard to hide how disappointed I am. I really think he has a fantastic opportunity and I feel sad that his girlfriend has persuaded him not to go. She isn’t academic and is content for them to carry on working locally and move into together. Aibu?

Love the people who are just throwing out a degree apprenticeship as an option to someone who has no real direction or clue what they want to do.

Apprenticeships are hugely competitive you will be up against people with the highest grades who have a range of examples of related work experience/shadowing/volunteering and may have their own portfolio of related work. After submitting an impressive CV and a tailored cover letter you often have personality tests, a group interview and then a 121 interview where you will need to impress with your interest and dedication to the role, your ability to be a team player and be able to answer questions confidently and competently and make your experience relevant.

It's not something you just do on the fly or on a whim and then just get. DS went through the process, applying to 25 different companies and getting to all sorts of different stages of the process. He was predicted all A stars, had a github full of his own work, apps he had made, relevant volunteering and work shadowing and often didn't get past the first stage.

I can't imagine many people just walk into plumbing or electrician apprenticeships easily either - in fact google tells me that the number of applicants far out weighs the number of places (for those already with a level 2 qualification) and that plumbing apprenticeships are extremely difficult to get. I'd imagine who you know is relevant too. Our plumber has an apprentice - it's his son.

For every person who doesn't go to uni but still goes on to earn a huge amount I wonder how many hundreds there are who end up on minimum wage forever, or on benefits. Going to uni at 30 is not going to be the same experience as going at 18/19 either. There were a few older people on my degree and they always lived away and were never really part of things.

Personally I'd push him to do the degree. If he had other things he was interested and wanted to pursue then fine, but it doesn't seem like he does. The girlfriend sounds controlling so I'd want him away from her as well.

You have made assumptions in your reply.

Both my husband and I went to university, we both also have masters degrees so the ‘it never did us any harm comment’ utter shite.

And we do not tell them to be ‘plumbers’ as you can see from my comment. What we say is ‘University is amazing but the idea that a degree will open doors other pathways won’t isn’t entirely true’

My sons are well aware they can do any career they see fit, but getting tens of thousands of pounds in debt to enter a career you can do via an apprenticeship is poor planning and as a parent it would be completely negligent if I didn’t make them aware of that. And also, on that thread, getting tens of thousands of pounds in debt so that you can ‘see what university is like’ is pure stupidity.

We tell our children - if you want to do something that requires a degree, University is where you need to go. If you can enter your chosen career via an apprenticeship then it makes more sense to do that.

My student loan was £34,000. I have paid back £29,000. I still owe them £26,000. I would never ever actively encourage my children to get themselves into that sort of debt needlessly.

But if you go to those countries, education is highly valued even amongst the people who stay in their country of origin. You can see it amongst African and Asian kids who succeed in the same system poor White kids fail in. They are being let down by the British cultural disdain for education and educators. Not only by their parents but the chattering classes who want to gatekeep further and higher education to the elites and in turn fetishise yesteryear of the noble poor.. Our system is terrible but it lets down all our children because it does not provide opportunities for those who do not want to or cannot go into higher education but people habitually dismiss and disparage those who do.

The bottom line is whatever anyone's adult child decides to do whether thats uni, full time work, travel, apprenticeship. It's their life not yours aslong as my kids are happy and healthy thats all that matters. Their life choices as adults are none of my business aslong as they are doing something.

"Lots are Chevening scholars or are funded by their governments."

According to their own website:

"Chevening Scholarships enable outstanding emerging leaders from all over the world to pursue one-year master’s degrees in the UK."

That's not your typical undergraduate student doing a three year BA degree in Business Studies though, is it?

"...or are funded by their governments"

Are you perhaps talking about something like the Indian 'National Overseas Scholarship' programme that supports students from certain castes to get a Masters or PhD overseas?

Again, this is very different from an ordinary undergraduate course.

"A lot self fund masters courses after 20 year careers in the UN or business orgs."

Are you perhaps talking about an MBA or a similar type of course?

Once again, as I said, that is a very different cohort indeed than those doing a three year undergraduate degree and it is not at all comparable.

.

The correct comparator to an 18 year old British person thinking about attending a British university to do a first degree would be an overseas student also wanting to attend a British university to do a first degree.

The university I attended currently has 46% UK undergraduates, 8% from the EU and 46% international undergraduates (according to UCAS).

More than half of all those international students come from China (source HESA).

The next two largest countries are Hong Kong and the USA.

Also, despite international students making up only 46% of undergraduates they account for almost 80% of tuition fee income.

Chinese (as well as Hong Kong, American etc) undergraduates studying in the UK are not (generally speaking) being paid for by their governments. The vast majority are being funded by their families.

Absolutely agree. Getting out and working offers lots of life experience. They get to see what it's like when things go well and when things don't go so well at work. They learn a lot of skills that uni won't be teaching them. DS aged 19 has full time hours right now (10 hr shifts) working in a bakery whilst he waits on college term to begin. He's not thrilled about it but knows the money's helping pay for his car insurance and saving up to move out.

No guarantee of work after uni as many have pointed out. Let young people find their own path and if they f*ck it up they can learn from the experience the hard way. There's too much wrapping young people up in cotton wool. Don't clip their wings.

Uni isn't right for everyone.
@youalright sounds like your DD is getting on fine and found the right path for her. She has become successful and didn't need to go to uni to achieve this.

I don't think that anybody is saying otherwise.

The big problem is that while there have always been jobs like this, the number of such jobs have increased at a much smaller rate (if at all) than the number of graduates that are chasing those jobs.

So, 30 or 40 years ago there was a very definite 'graduate premium' that could be measured.

Today, for those graduates who get one of these jobs, there is still very much a 'graduate premium'. The only problem is what happens to all the other graduates that don't get one of these jobs?

As everyone has said Uni doesn't necessarily advance life chances.

I wanted to caution you about taking this attitude to his GF, I've known so many Mum's cause a rift by blaming what their sons do on their GFs which is just nonsense...he is an adult try and understand his decisions

And in the meantime one or two babies come along. End of story.

I think he is very wise if he isn't 100% certain.

Sadly, this is a tale as old as time, it’s not necessarily the worst thing that can happen to a person though we are fundamentally put on this earth to procreate the next generation
Which the current cohort of 25 to 40 year-olds are upset they’re missing out on. Literally crying on radio phone ins can’t afford children.
So maybe this lot I’ve got the right idea leave school at 18 and get on with their lives instead of tracing around Australia destroying the barrier reef and racking up 60 grand worth of Debt before they even step outside the front door

Still not sure what your point is? At my uni we also have refugee students from Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan, Gaza all doing UG degrees who aren’t funded by wealthy families. It’s a massive mix of students from 170 countries- some of whom undoubtedly come from wealthy families but a lot who don’t. The students from Gaza are studying logistics management to help them learn about supply chains etc to
support rebuilding society when they go home.

But my original point was that what they have in common generally is a wider international perspective simply by the fact that they have chosen to come to the U.K. to study. Much more value is placed on education - a value that has been eroded in the U.K.

But you have to accept some people dont value the knowledge and experience they got from their degree. Some complain about low contact hours, low quality lectures, tutorials being cut, strikes so their work doesnt get marked, chaotic admin and felt a bit misled when the degree they did doesnt lead anywhere. Nearly half the debt for many is accommodation costs, not education costs anyway, which have gone up more than inflation and increasingly private equity is involved in them.

And, as someone who doesnt have a degree, I dont accept that a degree is the only way to gain knowledge and experience either. i have degree level professional qualifications for a start.

Im not against degrees. Im delighted my son is going as he wants to and i think he will gain a lot. Clearly huge numbers still value the experience as huge numbers go, but some people feel they wasted money and others are nervous they might on hearing their stories.

I haven't RTFT but just wanted to say my brother was in the OPs son's position. His girlfriend was not from a family that valued education (whereas university was standard in ours)and she was a few years older than him, so convinced him that doing a degree was a waste of time and that by both of them working they would do better. They both got NMW jobs and moved into their own place. DBs girlfriend 'accidently' got pregnant in the first year of living together and refused to go back to work. DB was 20 and working 6 full days a week just to pay bills. Thank goodness he had very good GCSEs and solid STEM A levels and got into a very good degree apprenticeship that paid well.It was new at the time and extremely competitive, there were 7 stages in the process and only 8 places for 1000+ applicants. It's a long haul as it takes double the time, his girlfriend is now pregnant with #2 and has zero intention of working until the DC are in secondary school (oldest is 18 months).
OP needs to keep reminding her ds of the consequences and not constantly properly him up financially.

What are his plans? He surely doesn't want to be doing bar work forever? Can he be persuaded to look for more meaningful work with a chance of a career?

This.
He's had some work experience in his gap year, which is good. But he needs to plan to make sure he doesn't just waste this time and languish in minimum wage jobs that don't give him the experience he needs to move up.

One of the things that helps job seekers stand out is some voluntary work in the area they want the job in... so if its the music industry for eg... working at a local venue, improving social media/video skills, event promotion or seliing tickets (if he wanted to go into marketing) would add to his CV., Local radio/hospital radio has lots of opportunities to learn about audio tech/production skills etc. and a chance to do things outside a day to day entry level job.
Or he could in this second gap year, do a season somewhere, giving him the chance to travel a bit, also shows some skills in people management.

He should bear in mind that if there is a job area he wants to work in, even if it seem far fetched or competitive, it is easier to break in when you are still used to having a relatively low salary, than earning more in a job you don't care for and having to take a pay cut to do it.

Maybe he could also go to some uni open days, which would give him the chance to see more about the courses and if it interests him. I think one of the main advantages of uni, is that you get to meet a wide variety of people roughly your own age, from all over the country, with varied interests and that can spark ideas.

It's hard to say really without knowing what his interests are.
Anyway. He sounds like he's lucky to have strong parental and grandparent support and encouragement, wishing him all the best x

YANBU to be disappointed as it will feel to you that he's passing up an amazing opportunity.

YANBU to be disappointed that he's possibly made this decision due to influence from his girlfriend. I can guess that you feel that she's holding him back and that at a time when his life could and should be getting bigger and opening more doors, she's part of making it smaller.

Uni isn't the right choice for everyone and it doesn't have to happen at that age but that doesn't change that it feels disappointing to you because it's what you were expecting would happen next, and as a parent you would imagine all those amazing opportunities that university life could have opened up for him.

You can't pressure him into making a life decision because it's what you want for him. You've found a way to address what he's said are the barriers (finances) and he's still stuck to his guns. You can still be proud of what career choices he makes and how he lives his life AND be gutted he didn't go to Uni - those two things can both be true at the same time.

It's OK to say "I'm absolutely gutted that you're not going to Uni. I hope that this is a decision you've made for yourself and it's not been made for you by anyone else."

Business Management though is absolutely something he can learn on the job and develop skills through work based learning. There are some excellent degree apprenticeships in Business, Accounting, Finance etc if he chooses that route in the future.

Take an interest in where he's working or applying to. You've done a great job as a parent to bring him up to this age and into the kind of young man who wants to work in Business and in Management, he's still got ambition and I really hope that he can use that independence and experience he gained in his gap year.

just to add. by voluntary work that as a relevance to the area you want to work in eventually I mean doing this in addition to say bar work for example. Which means say if he was interested in event management, working at music festivals. It means giving up free time, but he'd meet people in the industry and it would add to his CV that he'd done that.

My son fully intends to get a vasectomy at 18 for exactly these reasons
Who’s raising these daughters?

Broad sweep but those that have gone to Uni are the lower earners in my family, all stuck in £45-£60k a year corporate jobs, rather than owning their own businesses.

My children have said they have no interest in attending university and are opting for apprenticeships instead.

I've used my contacts to help them get their foot in the door, and they will start their finance apprenticeships once they're 16.

I think its a bit sad if he is being limited in his opportunities because of being in a relationship so young.

Why is the only aspiration for our young people to buy a house at a really young age and settle down?

Its not the only aspiration. It may suit some young people, it wont suit others.

I know plenty of young people that are home bodies and are perfectly happy with settling down. Not everyone wants to see the world and that's OK. Others want to spread their wings and have loads of different experiences by the time they are 30 and that is ok. Its not one size fits all.

There are quite a few that manage to buy a house and still have an awesome lifestyle when they are young.

@Zippedydoobaah your DB’s partner sounds very lazy and entitled. I guess he could leave her though if not happy. At least then he would only have to pay for the child’s upkeep and not hers. And he could have perhaps avoided getting her pregnant a second time if he didn’t like the situation he was in.

I have offered my brother for me to pay for a vasectomy for him. I'm very worried he's going to end up with 6 kids to support and a partner who expects likes the higher end of things in life.