To think the El Salvador prison idea is a brilliant one?

[Jess788]

I usually steer clear of the news but caught this story earlier. What a brilliant idea - the prisons are overflowing and this would free up space and also save money.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yw9d2212xo

TicklishReader I agree ,the whole page is more like a Sun paper take !

Hmm, what's not to like? Working young men with the "wrong" haircut jailed for 40 years, no appeal. A 2 minute remote hearing and you have no lawyer, tough titty. Venezuelans and Colombians with no criminal records deported there from America. Probably 10% of the inmates of the CECOT system have committed no crime.

What's not to like? Where do we sign?!

Why am I not surprised this first-time poster never returned to the thread?

Almost like it does given the dramatic fall.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/696152/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/

It worked there because of the enormous number of gang related murders. That’s not the case here, where there are more varied reasons for violence and murder. El Salvador still has a homicide rate roughly twice the UK’s.

I know this won't happen but C'mon Binface!

The comment I replied to tried to say it hasn’t worked because they have the highest level of homicide per capita. It’s very clear from the data that it has worked because they fear going there. Prison should always be somewhere people don’t want to go but if you talk to anyone in this country that has been they’ll tell you it’s a joke and that’s probably why we have so many repeat offenders, it’s worth the risk because they know what it’s like inside a UK prison.

Yes well they were wrong. And you’re wrong that it could work just the same here.

You’re also wrong - but a bit less wrong - on the reasons for reoffending. It’s true that sometimes people are less afraid of prison after they’ve been there.

For some it’s the only structure they’ve ever had. But the riskiest time for suicide is after a recall, so it’s obvious lots of people are unhappy about being in prison.

Frequent reoffenders are also in addiction, homeless, mentally unwell or otherwise struggling. If you turn people loose with nothing to do and nowhere to go, it’s inevitable that some will come back.

People who’ve served long sentences and are accommodated in release because the law requires it, recognising that homelessness is a risk factor, offend far less frequently.

And the lowest reoffending in the world is in countries where prisons are miles better than English prisons. I assume you mean English, since UK would include Jersey which is surprisingly cosy.

The point is you can't legally deport anyone to a jail in El Salvador because it's incompatible with UK human rights laws.

To change this will take significant changes.

Even deporting other nationals such as Albanian is more complex than people would have you believe.

How do you get a prisoner back to Albania? On an easyJet flight? Or a specially chartered flight that requires multiple permissions from the Albanian government? This requires diplomatic negotiations and agreements. You can't just deport because the other country has to be willing to take them.

Go ask anyone who’s been in prison if they would have thought twice about breaking the law if they thought they’d end would end up in a prison like El Salvador has and let me know what they say. I’ve had this conversation with such people recently when the tv programme aired and they were shocked at how tough it is.

Don’t think everyone who ends up in prison has a sob story either. My family members just sold drugs for the money pure and simple and have been to prison more than once yet still carry on breaking the law because sentences and conditions inside are no deterrent to them. They even carried on running their little empire from inside prison with their own mobile phones so forgive me for thinking our prison systems are too soft but I’ve seen it firsthand and believe a change is needed.

Oh! That must be why they are horribly overcrowded!

The statistics speak for themselves.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/696152/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/

I've worked with many victims of serious crime (that you've listed) and criminals funny thing is...they may often be the same people.

Maybe you could use your extensive critical reasoning skills to work out why?

Every study ever undertaken on criminals and criminal behaviour shows they don't stop and think that's why one famous UK rehabilitation course was called ABC Stop and Think

You are unaware execution is not a deterrent?

Aware that an equitable economy is?

Or just simplistic thoughts ?

Well you’d think they had plenty of time for reflection when in prison but from what I’ve seen clearly not. You can make excuses for them and blame everyone else but sometimes there’s no reason for them to break the law apart from the love of the money it brings. Whoever said crime doesn’t pay clearly has never met my family, they were earning decent money and had been educated and left college with a trade but yeah equitable economy for the win. Typical lefty bollocks yet again.

I’ve worked with people in prisons on and off for almost 25 years. Some would be deterred, others would not. Most would imagine they’d never get caught. If deterrence was that simple there’d be no murders in death states, and yet…

For the right price they’d do anything, prison isn’t even a second thought for murderers, rapists, physical assaults until after the event.
If it was a deterrent then there would be no prisoners in El Salvador.
People take crazy risks every day, smoking, drinking, drugs, human nature tends to believe that it’ll never happen to them, it happens other people, until it does.
Most crimes start with a plan, a plan that aims to get away.

Its not lefty bollocks though is it....America and crime levels for your beliefs, Scandinavian countries in the past for a clear example of low crime through relative equity and rehabilitation

I am not talking about putting people in foreign prisons. We want them out our prisons because we don’t have enough space. We don’t want them roaming around the country.

So deport them. Take them straight from the prison to the plane and kick them off at Albania. Job done.

Honestly every other country manages this kind of thing. It’s not hard. We seriously need to get a grip with this cannot do attitude. We can. Everyone else does. Just do it.

Just put them on any old plane?

How do you think that works? What countries do this?

So they are just going to stay there and give up being criminal, rather than find a way back to the UK because there's better criminal opportunities.

Given when you drive around Albania every other car is a Mercedes many with British number plates or other European number plates, I suspect that organised gangs might just ship them back.

You need them in Albanian prisons so they can't do that and yes that requires cooperation from the Albanian government.

Once again we see an attempt to over simplify a complex problem. You can't 'just' deport.

I might be pursuaded to support sending British politicians, who are convicted of soliciting bribes to advance the interests of hostile foreign nations, to El Salvadorian prisons.

But I expect Reform UK wont be up for that.

Of all of our problems this one is very simple. Probably one of the simplest I can think of.

Yes they will probably be continue to be criminals in Albania.

How do you do it? Ask France, they have been doing this nearly 10 years.

Germanys even been sending back afghans.

France and Germany both have higher proportions of foreign national offenders in prisons, and therefore they remove more by volume. But they don’t record FNOs the way we do, so I’m interested in why you seem to think they remove more people than the Uk. Around 40k people were removed last year I think, around 6k FNOs. The average FNO population is around the 12%, so around 8-9k. Obviously not all FNOs removed are in prison at the time of removal, but it gives you a sense of proportion.

just stick them in the army and off to a suitable warzone, as bootcamp training in active warzones not saying take them to war, but if your in an camp in an active warzone they may apricate their freedom more when theres missiles tanks etc flying around