Brownies incident stopped me singing, starting to see how messed up it was.

[Magenta82]

When I (44) was 8 I went to a big division meet up, not many people from my pack went. There was show put on by another group as part of their Entertainer badge, they played the spoons. Someone then described the award and I thought it sounded like fun. I went back and badgered the leaders until they agreed to do it.

We did a big group show for all the parents and everyone had to do an individual piece as well, some at the show and some on a normal Brownies night. I chose to do it at the show.

I decided to sing from my school hymn book (the blue one with the ugly kids on the front #4 Autumn Days), on my own, in front of everyone with no musical accompliment. The "judges" were 3 quite elderly ladies from some kind of group of retired Brownie leaders or something (trefoil?). They failed me. I didn't get the badge.

Now admittedly I can't carry a tune in a bucket but still! I was basically put off singing for life, gave up trying, if I was so bad I couldn't get a brownie bade I must be the worst in the world.

It seemed unjust at the time, but now I have a child in Squirrels I really just how fucked up it really was.

AIBU

My good friend, now well into her 70s, was told to mime at primary school and that put her off singing.

Until! a couple of years ago when she heard about the Tuneless Choir, which conveniently rehearses very close to where she lives. She loves it! They have appeared in public at least twice, at community events, and she's even been on a choir weekend to York.

From the website -
The choir for people who love singing
but can’t always hit the right notes.
No auditions. No tuition. No pressure.
Just the joy of singing together

(it's a franchise, but that's OK as she enjoys it)

Everyone can learn to sing in tune (barring disabilities etc that might prevent it). They won't all have beautiful tone or fantastic technique, but everyone can learn to be in tune.

My DD was entered by her primary school into a local music competition and she was failed in public because she used a backing track to accompany her rather than a real human on the grand piano. No one had told us or the school that was what she needed (and dear god at the age of 8 I was not going to pay for an accompanist). DD is now a conservatoire trained professional musician and she dreams of hunting that woman down and ramming her music where the sun don’t shine.

Ouch that's not nice. I get that you are supposed to achieve an objective to gain a badge but surely completing the task (singing to an audience) fulfils the entertainment requirement. As you say they were entertained so was tunefulness an essential requirement? Entertainment is subjective rather than objective.

Teachers/leaders were brutal in those days. I auditioned for the school choir and was rejected and called a "growler" (haha). I definitely think sometimes things have gone too far with prizes for everyone - there needs to be some sort of balance to prepare kids for life. But it would have made far more sense for the leaders to encourage amd guide you with developing your singing voice or suggesting an alternative entertainment activity. I did the Entertainment badge at guides and we did a show comprised of skits, singing and a bit of stand up comedy, playing to everyone's strengths. (I did not sing, unsurprisingly.)

The only badge I actually failed was Communications etc where our team was supposed to communicate messages in semaphore, morse code etc. We tried but didn't get a single one right and failed, now that was fair enough.

Jesus wept! What is wrong with some people? I'm outraged for you.

I wasn't allowed in the school choir at 7 (I was a growler) but my voice changed completely within a year and by secondary school I was singing principal roles in the school's annual G&S productions. Growler at 8 can be angelic choir by 11.

That is some BS, I’m so sorry OP! I’m a theatre and voice teacher, there’s a MASSIVE difference between gaining an award in a professional performance area (eg LAMDA or musical grades) and something like Brownies which is much more about effort and participation.

For example, what professional vocal training were they able to provide in Brownies all those years ago? Did those stuck up judges give any actionable feedback, or just deem you below par? It’s completely irresponsible to judge young people on a criteria you are not actively supporting them to develop.

Confidence and self belief are VITAL in performance, and much harder to teach than technical proficiency. Some people, to this day, LOVE tearing even very young people down to make themselves feel better and convince themselves it’s all part of the ‘biz’.

I hope you can find a space to use and enjoy your voice now, you should never have been made to feel it wasn’t ’good enough’ xx

I know people say that anyone can be taught to sing but it's not a skill most 8 year old would think they need to acquire. Those of us who don't sing in tune are singing the "right notes", just not in the right order.

It depends entirety on your approach to badges. If you think that they are for kids to show that they can meet a certain standard of an activity then they did the right thing. If you think guiding should be about girls having a safe space to try activities out and boost their confidence then no it wasn't. I grew up in the first, am now very much part of the second.

Oh, this brings back memories! When I was starting would now be year 7 after singing a few songs in our music lesson everyone was made to sing on their own until they got to me. I was told I was spoiling it for everyone else and from then on was required to bring a book! For 5 years!
Then, when my eldest was about 4, I was joining in with the Postman Pat theme tune and he said 'let the man sing it himself, mummy'.
Safe to say singing is not my forte!

I agree. It wasn't a singing badge

I recall a girl in my brownies being told to mime when we were rehearsing as a choir for a show. She silently cried. It really stuck with me and I was probably about the same age. Horrible behaviour.
I’m sorry this happened to you x

Must have been hard, not paying attention to the thing at the end of every programme. It specifically said that they could not be returned - the reason why I never did it, as although I'd have loved to see one of my (crap) pictures on TV, I didn't want to lose them.

Dang, they're not in Scotland. Yet.

That's my quote. I don't run Brownies to teach them to sing, crochet, draw, run or put up a tent perfectly (the last one I am more fussy about!) I'm not a teacher, or a qualified coach in any of those areas. I run Brownies to help girls try new things, build confidence, make friends and have experiences they wouldn't otherwise get - and I'm good at it, my pack is consistently oversubscribed. It's (mostly) not a skills-based activity.

There are challenge badges (Bronze, Silver, Gold) that are harder and will only be achieved by girls going the extra mile. But what's wrong with some participation awards along the way?!

Brownies was cruel in the 80s - I’m still sore about failing my Collectors badge. I lugged in my soap collection from home, I had some really pretty ones, all different smells and sizes, one was shaped like Snoopy! Another was like a watermelon and really smelled of it. All boxed up and pristine. Over 30 of them and I was told it wasn’t good enough and I wouldn’t get the badge. Wonder if it was the same judges 😁. I hope you get to enjoy singing nowadays.

They’ll have been from the local Trefoil Guild (the retirees essentially). What a nasty thing to do, though I find some of the old guard within Girl Guiding are sadly still like this today.

Can you imagine the kind of person who would do that to a child? It's hard for most people to imagine how twisted and cruel you would have to be. And cowardly if there was a ring-leader among the 3. Just be glad that you don't have it in you to do similar.

I am a couple of years older than you, there was a lot of mean spirited adults who had free rein to be cruel to children. I know my self esteem was crushed on a few occasions as a young child in the 80’s. Even kids were nasty, there has been a lot of positive changes since then, the adults still exist but as more PC now.

Yes, that part stood out to me as well. The Brownie leaders may well have been mean, but that was deliberately nasty - there wasn't even a need for an adjective to describe them at all: just 'the blue hymn book with the kids on it' would have been fine.

Cunts! I hope they died miserable and alone. Just being brave enough to stand up and do it and learning the words should have been enough. Similar age as you, tough as old boots though aren’t we? Because of how we were treated, we’ve got something that some people can only dream of which cannot be taught - resilience and grit.

I suppose it depends what the criteria were for passing the badge test. If the performance had to be objectively successful and you were out of tune, I can see why you wouldn't pass. If it was more broadly about entertaining and effort and teamwork, then you should have got it.

However, if it was essential to perform to a standard of competence, your Brown Owl should have steered you towards something you could achieve with practice.

I know some people say you can practise to be able to sing in tune, but I'm pretty sure I never could, I just can't make my voice match what's in my head - if it is possible it would take more time and specialist tuition than would be available to an 8 year old at Brownies.

I was told to fucking MIME by my teacher when I was 9. Everyone can sing, ok some of us do it badly but that is ok too. Fuck that bitch!

That is so sad. Experiences like that can have such an impact. Perhaps try a James B Partridge show where you can singalong to school songs, including from that blue book. Make some happier memories of singing.

My brownie pack failed our agility badge en masse. We completed one of the tasks but leapfrogging ended up as a pile of brownies splattered across the playing field. I wonder whether they had already bought the badges and were able to send them back...

So sorry for this op, it's amazing how we still remember these things.

I'm the same age as you op 😉 and was selected to participate in an inter school public speaking competition. I had never done anything like it before, it wasn't a regular thing at our school.

I was on stage in front of all these parents and this kid had to ask me questions, to which I then responded. I seem to remember the topic was current affairs/Tony Blair. She asked me a question and I literally froze. I couldn't speak, I was completely immobile. The worst stage fright ever! We had to wait like two minutes whilst I stood there like a complete idiot until the timer beeped. I didn't say one word. The other kid was looking at me, like wtf.

To this day, I cannot give presentations. I struggle speaking in front of a group, even informally , between friends.

It's stayed with me.