AIBU to think refusing treatment from non-white medical professionals should have consequences?

[MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack]

There has apparently been a significant rise in racism towards NHS staff, with a growing number of people refusing to allow non-white NHS staff to treat them. This is sad but not surprising given the shift in society as a whole towards people expressing their racism much more openly.

https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-staff-experiencing-unconscionable-levels-of-racist-abuse-survey-finds-13569575

I have always admired the commitment of NHS staff who treat all patients with care and compassion, even when those patients are rude and abusive. But if people are actually refusing to let certain staff provide treatment, surely there should be consequences for this?

AIBU to think that everyone has the right to refuse treatment if they so wish, but if a patient refuses treatment from a medical professional simply because they don't like the colour of that medical practitioner's skin, then they should then forfeit the right to receive that treatment on the NHS. So they can either go without or find the money to be treated privately by a medical professional of their choice?

There would need to be signs warning people of the consequences of their choices, of course, but if someone doesn't want a Black or Asian radiographer carry out their x-ray, then fine... they just don't get an x-ray.

I am pretty certain that my 81 year old mum asked for a non-white doctor or HCP, all hell would break loose if the Daily Fail heard about it.

The other way around: a myriad reasons why. Accent. Grooming gangs. Poor education. Past trauma. Dress. Japanese prison camps even. Etc etc.

And of course, one brown or black person represents their whole race, while one white person is an individual. Free of insinuations about their culture or beliefs.

That said @NoMullet's post was very rational and balanced. Racists- ie the people referrred to in the article- can't be refused treatment, especially urgent care. They can be asked to wait.

Yes there is a difference between deliberate racism and past sexual trauma.
But then I’m assuming you mean the person who has that sexual trauma has issues with ANY person kf that race right?

And then, where do you draw the limit?
One went on hols and was attacked whilst let’s say they were in Africa. They have PTSD from that event so it’s normal they refuse doctors or nurses that are black maybe?
One was in the army in Afghanistan and have PTSD following an awful time (ambush and kidnapped) so it’s ok to for them to insult HCP that ‘look like them’ and demand a white HCP.

All of those could easily have happened too.
Yet it’s always the white woman gang raped by Asian men story that is being brought up (not saying that it didn’t happened or it is right etc…) to defend the right of ‘wanting to protect yourself’.

At my last few hospital appointments I’ve been seen to you by foreign professionals. I could not honestly tell you whether I think they were good or efficient at the job because their accents were incredibly thick I struggled to understand and communicate with them effectively. I also felt that when I asked questions, they danced around topics as opposed to giving me direct answers. It made a very stressful time quite frustrating and if I had a choice, I would always opt for somebody that can communicate clearly in English as opposed to caring where the actual people come from.

So if someone was SA’d by someone with red hair can they refuse treatment from them because it’s triggering and expect a non-red-headed member of staff to be diverted from their task to see to them?

Yes there is and I very much doubt that it is past rape victims who are calling clinicians monkeys and dirty foreigners.

It's doing a disservice to rape victims to try and conflate them with the racists in article of the OP.

Whatabout it they can't speak English well enough for me, whatabout if someone the same ethnicity as them has raped someone in the past, what about if they were rude. Whatabout people learn to treat HCPs with respect in their workplace and express the issue they have without calling people monkeys or dirty or other racist expressions. It isn't difficult, 1000s of people manage to navigate the health system frustrated, in pain, scared etc every day without being racist or being accused of it.

If they were raped by someone with red hair, why not? Do you only have empathy when it comes to race and not with victims of SA being triggered?

You're very kind, Samia92, but it honestly wasn't that hard to deal with - though I can see it might have been to someone more easily cowed

Once the narrative they were so desperate to create became obvious, it was almost entertaining to watch them tying themselves in knots and posing what they fondly imagined to be incisive questions in an attempt at entrapment

The conflation of victims of SA with racists shouting " You dirty monkey".🙄 Has to be seen to be believed.

Actually racism is a crime.

I'm a British Indian with tons of family and friends who are doctors working in this country. Most of them were born and brought up here. Many of them have been racially abused by patients, including the ones with British accents who did all their medical education and training here. Reading this thread makes me feel sick to my stomach. It's a lovely reminder that no matter how long we have been here, no matter how assimilated we are into British culture, no matter what my family and I have contributed to this country, there are so many of you who still think we don't belong here. And the funniest thing is, most of you to whom that applies try to deny it, but scratch the surface and it's right there.

No treatment

I am ashamed of the British people who treat you and others like you this way.

Please know it's not everyone, and I hope that you also see and hear the allies you have as well.

Although you shouldn't need allies... There shouldn't be a situation where you need allies. Everyone should just get along and not be concerned with such things.

I think there’s a difference between racial abuse and requesting a different clinician (even if based on race). You can’t force people to stop being racist. I don’t think that when people are in pain, struggling and afraid is the best time to educate them and make them see the error of their ways.

I’m also uncomfortable with setting precedents and misunderstandings, refusals on different grounds that could be misinterpreted as racism if the clinician is a different race.

Example 1: Foreign doctor (of a different race to me) , I’m also foreign. They could barely understand me, I could barely understand them. It made it very difficult and time consuming for both of us. Am I racist if I request a different one? Don’t forget that “thick accent”, “issues communicating” ,”struggled to understand them” is also considered racism sometimes.

Example 2: I didn’t like the manner of a certain nurse . She was Nigerian. I love my muslim(Asian) nurse and we have a great rapport. Is it racist to ring up and request an appointment with her? Is it racist to ask if she’s available if they say the first nurse will see me?

Example 3: Foreign dentist (same race as me ) was an absolute dick and his bedside manner was shit. I didn’t go back for ages. My black (muslim) dentist is brilliant. Am I xenophobic? Am I racist?

Who cares what a few people think @burblish.

My doctor parents had a lot of racist abuse in the 70s. Mum particularly, as people assumed a sari-wearing bindi-sporting woman must necessarily be stupid/ bigoted/ not as good as white men. Some came scuttling back though, whem their kids were ill!

20% of NHS consultants are Indian. If you don't want to use them, find someone else. Or pay for private all white healthcare.

Read The Thread. Read the OP. Read the article.

So sorry this happens to you and so sorry this appears to be an increasing norm.

And I agree there does appear to be this belief that non-white Britons are not quite British. And the amount of derailing when the article provides numerous examples of clear cut bigotry.

I think some people here need to learn how post traumatic stress disorder works. It isn’t derailing, it’s a perfectly valid, not uncommon scenario when some people are proposing blanket one size fits all treatment for all people who request an alternative doctor.

Exactly, but I fear this kind of nuance is wasted on some of these posters.

I agree, that is the case. But I was asked what a valid reason might be and I gave an example to illustrate from my own clinical experience- as requested.

I suspect there will be other valid reasons- though again, a small minority.

But, my concern is that if you create an environment where patients fear being denied care/said to be refusing treatment if they are deemed to have a racist motivation for asking for an alternative HCP, you are creating a very hostile environment for people like this patient- however tiny that number may be. These are often vulnerable people too. I think that is absolutely against the principles of healthcare and we need to be mindful of the unintended consequences of adhering loudly and militantly to a policy of this nature.

And, I’d also suggest to you that the minority of patients who are loudly and openly racist will not change their behaviour as a result of stringent enforcement of the policy. Plenty of racism goes on but quite thinly veiled and difficult to act on. The ones who would most likely to be negatively impacted are this very small number of vulnerable patients, and to me there are better ways of tackling racism towards HCP.

You are not racist or xenophobic..But you know that.
Why are so many posters coming up with straw men arguments or " you don't get nuance"?

It’s not up to you to “draw the limit”. It’s a valid reason that isn’t actually based on racism, but trauma. Patients are often frightened, lack dignity and agency. It’s up to HCPs to be the professionals. Of course that doesn’t mean they have to put up with actual verbal abuse, that’s different. But I think people should always be able to have a say in who can perform intimate procedures on them.

And?

Not a single poster has said you can't request a different doctor for good reasons.

What we have said is that you can't call people dirty foreigners or monkeys or insinuate they are rapists because they look like grooming gang members.
I fear this point has been lost.

But I absolutely believe that if a poster said she wanted a non-white doctor because she doesn't feel respected by any white doctors, as a pp said above, she would be torn apart. Nuance or not.

And it has zero to do with race for me. If a Thai child had been sexually abused by white men, would you really oblige them to have a white doctor examine them if they objected? You wouldn’t be equivocating over whether the doctor was German or Dutch but the rapists were Australian, would you?

I hate the terms ‘cry racism’ and also ‘race card’ It says something about the poster, and it’s never good.