AIBU to think refusing treatment from non-white medical professionals should have consequences?

[MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack]

There has apparently been a significant rise in racism towards NHS staff, with a growing number of people refusing to allow non-white NHS staff to treat them. This is sad but not surprising given the shift in society as a whole towards people expressing their racism much more openly.

https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-staff-experiencing-unconscionable-levels-of-racist-abuse-survey-finds-13569575

I have always admired the commitment of NHS staff who treat all patients with care and compassion, even when those patients are rude and abusive. But if people are actually refusing to let certain staff provide treatment, surely there should be consequences for this?

AIBU to think that everyone has the right to refuse treatment if they so wish, but if a patient refuses treatment from a medical professional simply because they don't like the colour of that medical practitioner's skin, then they should then forfeit the right to receive that treatment on the NHS. So they can either go without or find the money to be treated privately by a medical professional of their choice?

There would need to be signs warning people of the consequences of their choices, of course, but if someone doesn't want a Black or Asian radiographer carry out their x-ray, then fine... they just don't get an x-ray.

"if someone refuses to be treated or cared for by an NHS staff member due to the colour of their skin, that this is racism and something that technically in the eyes of the law is a hate crime."

Please don't misrepresent the law. There is a lot of nonsense talked about hate crimes.

For anything to be a "hate crime" there has to first be an independent underlying "crime" before the "hate" part comes into it.

What do you think the crime is here? Refusing treatment is not a crime and the reason behind the refusal does not turn it into one.

My issue is with my hearing, and the accent being hard to lipread, I cannot see people's lips over the phone, so the accent makes little difference in that scenario.

I tend to avoid phone calls where I can because I hate phoning people, but I do find them easier than speaking face to face, with any accent, at the moment. I can hold the phone to my better ear, turn the volume up high, and make sure I'm not in a place with a lot of background noise.

People don't have those functions. I can't turn their volume up and hold them to my right ear. They can turn their volume up by shouting, but unless they shout loud enough, which they rarely do, that makes it worse, not better.

I can turn my head so they are at my right side, but sometimes the layout of the room would then mean my back is to them, which is a) rude and b) makes it worse because I then cannot see their lips. My right ear isn't 100% either, it's just not as bad as the left one.

So that excuses refusing treatment from non-white staff ?

Rolls eyes

Ive had some amazing nurses and doctors from Africa, Singapore and India to name a few but have had some bloody awful ones who I can't understand and I'm pretty sure don't understand me.

I read this morning about an Egyptian doctor who attached someone's intestines the wrong way around causing a loop instead of attaching to the bowel they attached it to the stomach. An African nurse that got a job in gastro and didn't know what some body parts were or simple medical terms. I think the NHS needs to do better checks on employing individuals from aboard. Though I sometimes wonder why we aren't investing more in home grown talent.

When I was in hospital recently, lots of student nurses didn't have a job at the end, majority were black british and were amazing, I hope they don't go aboard.

You do wonder how some people get the job and it's not racist to refuse to see someone if they are medically incompetent or unable to communicate.

I do believe a tiny minority are racist and they should have to wait longer.

It’s far more nuanced than that, isn’t it? I know the left isn’t great at nuance, but I’ll try…

The NHS treats everyone, because (morally) it’s unconscionable not to preserve life where possible. We treat all kinds of undesirables for this reason - like Rudukabana in Broadmoor.

I personally find racism abhorrent, but that’s not a universal view and holding negative views about certain people is not unlawful per se. There are plenty of other reprehensible views out there - misogyny, homophobia, ageism. It’s a horribly slippery slope to withhold treatment based on whether the patient hold the “correct” opinions and gleefully “let them suffer” if they don’t. It’s pitchfork talk, and we’ve moved on from that.

Third, the NHS is hardly at the top of its game right now and that inevitably leads to more challenging conversations between patients and hcp’s. It’s as facile to assume that no hcp would use this “rule” for their own benefit as it is to assume there are no racist patients. It’s far easier to accuse a patient of racism than it is to respond effectively to a justified complaint.

There are so many potential exceptions to any “rule” as well. My DGD’s best friends for 40 years were an Indian family, but he began to express racist views (and behave in a sexually inappropriate manner) after a GBM diagnosis. It is common to become disinhibited in these circumstances. Then we have all the dementia patients who don’t even know what they are saying…

FWIW DH has had one white patient refuse to see him in the last 25 years, because “ew suicide bomber” apparently. More recently, he had to call security after a patient angrily and loudly berated him in the clinic waiting room for not writing a letter confirming the patient’s need for a bigger council property. This patient was a Muslim, like DH, and considered DH a godless traitor to his religion. 🙄

I mean, obviously, both men are cunts, and I suspect if either of them were to be palmed off to another consultant with different skin colour (or hair length, or shoe size) DH would be utterly delighted. However, I suspect in your example only one of them would have future treatment refused. Which is, respectfully, nuts.

I disagree for two reasons:-

1. If a racist asks for someone of a different skin colour they face natural consequences of a much longer wait as a punitive result. Positively, a staff member is protected from potential racism by the person.

1. I know someone who faced long term child sexual abuse from a grooming gang who were all non-white. In everyday life he is fine. He has a visceral fear reaction from being touched in a medical setting by someone non-white and is so scared of being accused of being racist that he has avoided the GP / Hospital in potentially life threatening circumstances.

As an aside, I was once treated in A&E by a Dr who had English as a second language. He treated my minor physically obvious symptoms, but didn't understand my more concerning non-visible symptoms. If he had I would have had scans and likely been admitted. Instead I was released in agony with paracetamol. What should I have said to get the treatment I needed from someone who clearly didn't fully understand me?

Where did she say that every woman who has experienced sexual violence, cant want a male doctor?

A little compassion for other people seems to be missing these days, its all me, me, me.

I do understand what you mean, I find it harder to follow someone when I can’t see their mouth. In a medical setting I think articulating that to the practitioner is completely acceptable, rather than some of the posts here about ‘Indian doctors’ and the assumption that English as an additional language means someone is incomprehensible.

What should I have said to get the treatment I needed from someone who clearly didn't fully understand me?

expecting the staff to speak the language of the country they are working in, or have an interpreter, is not racist nor outrageous.

Funnily enough that’s why I responded to the pp. She doesn’t get to say what we all need, either do I, neither do you. We’re all different, not defined by someone else’s shitty actions. Fucking hate when people do that.

If patients can start refusing doctors based on sex and gender, because a female doctor can't be as good, can't be trusted, is too hormonal, and people can't see the problem of having a second-tier medicine, it's frightening.

We recently submitted a PALS Complaint regarding the treatment our disabled son received during a hospital visit.

The man who treated him was African, however that had absolutely no impact on his mistreatment of my son. Zero.

I still, when writing the complaint, felt I had to be very careful to not make it sound like my issue was in any way affected by his race, because it wasn’t, but it felt obvious that it could be assumed otherwise.

He did get it very wrong, but had I for some reason said that I didn’t trust him because of his race, I absolutely would have expected either refusal of treatment or a very long wait for a different doctor.

I worry that perfectly legitimate concerns would get thought of as racist. Eg declining consent for vaginal exams in labour. I declined most offered examinations but how would an individual member of staff know if I was declining due to colour of their skin (I wasn’t)

Don't be silly. Of course the NHS would still exist. We have been brain washed into believing that the answer to every British problem is to add in non white people. This is backwards thinking as white people are more than capable of doing the jobs currently taken by non white people.

I know someone who refused a Pakistani financial advisor recently. Wanted someone from their own culture.

Part of my job is sourcing/finding the right services for people. I have a lot specify with therapy (as an example) that they want someone from a similar background to them.

Some of it is on experience. They've had those from different cultures and felt unable to fully entrust them with their feelings. Others, it is just a preference.

Are you assuming 'non white' people working in the NHS aren't British?

Are we working under the assumption that “non white” people can’t do those jobs as effectively?

If not, there’s no problem with them having them, right?

I couldn’t give a flying proverbial what colour my doctor, nurse or HCA is. I am far more interested in their ability to do the job safely and effectively. They could be purple with yellow spots if they’re going to provide the level of care needed.

I assumed that was the sensible, normal way to look at it.

You can't not care for people just because you don't like their views- that goes right back to Hippocrates, it's not negotiable.
Making assumptions about people's contributions is not possible- plenty of racists I have met were well educated high earners and would paid in a full whack. Everyone has a right to their own opinions, but it's not reasonable to refuse treatment because of your opinion.

Why are you jumping in to offer your equally irrelevant view? The pp was saying that many women do need their intimate care to be by women only. Your statement that you don’t care doesn’t cancel out that she and many other women do.

If you work in the NHS, the refusals are often very blatantly racist unfortunately, not a misunderstanding or coincidence as with some of the examples here. There is so much racism, from patients on elderly wards to all ages in A&E. It's awful to witness and has made me very angry in behalf of my colleagues - who are often pretty resigned to it

If you're declining the procedure in any case, then there wouldn't be an issue, would there? Nobody is arguing that anyone should be denied wider care if they are suspected of being racist. Merely that, if you refuse a procedure because you don't like the race of the HCP, you can't demand that the same procedure be carried out by someone of a different race. In your scenario, you don't want the procedure in the first place, so the issue would never arise.

I think this is a valid approach. Those looking at the complaint may well be looking for any inferences of racism even if not overt. It is easier to dismiss patient s as bigot ed.trouble makers than actually dealing with the complaint.

The question of whether people of colour csn be racist is an interesting one.

it used to be answered in the negative - that racism was prejudice plus power and so any person of colour could not be racist. (This of course leaves open the possibility they can be prejudiced)

see eg here for an explanation of this:
https://jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/question/2009/march.htm

however this very much leaves open the possibility that in countries where the power is in the hands of people of colour they can be racist (and the obvious example is Muslims and Jews where Muslims are racist against Jews).

See eg for a (short and simplified) account here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam

india is also an example of a country where skin tone is extremely important and historically fairer children were preferred to darker children.

See eg this academic paper on the influence of skin colour in marriages in India

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274039263_Skin_color_matters_in_India

so in the context of the U.K. there are several cultures that are likely to judge skin tone and or ethnicity, Indian and Pakistani origin being likely given the home culture, as well as the Muslim/judaism clash.

it seems likely of the examples given in the article of racism not all of the people quoted were white.

People haven’t suddenly become racist you numpty

They are reacting to the very real problem of NHS employees not having a strong enough grasp of English to be able to safely administer care. The skin colour is a red herring.

Black nurse Jennifer Melle was dragged over the coals by the NHS and NMC for calling a transgender paedophile convict he on the phone to a doctor, he responded by physically threatening her and calling her the n word. She was disciplined for the affront to his “dignity” and received zero support for being the victim of a racist hate crime.

linked to Christian Concern because they give the most detail.

https://christianconcern.com/news/nursing-and-midwifery-council-abandons-cases-against-nurse-jennifer-melle/