to think some people on here have no idea what 16-18 year olds are actually like?

[Twile]

I’ve noticed that some posters on here seem to have no idea what parenting an older teenager is actually like.

Someone will post about their 16-18 year old being completely out of control - staying out all night, drinking, vaping, refusing school or college, being verbally abusive, getting involved with unsuitable partners or simply refusing to follow any rules.

Without fail, there are replies saying things like:

“Just stop them going.”
“Take their phone off them.”
“Ground them.”
“You’re the parent - just say no.”
“I’d never allow that”

It makes me wonder whether these people have actually parented an older teen.

A 16-18-year-old is not the same as a 10-year-old. They’re often physically bigger than you, legally have increasing autonomy, can leave the house if they choose, earn their own money and in many cases simply refuse to comply. You can’t physically force them to stay indoors, attend college, end a relationship or make sensible choices. And nor should you.

Of course boundaries still matter, and parenting doesn’t stop at 16. But the strategies change. You’re often relying on influence rather than control, and sometimes you’re choosing the least bad option rather than the ideal one.

OP we have no idea of your experience with teens so atm it could be that you are very passionately coming at this issue from no experience of either easy or tricky teen. And both sides are totally abstract to you

I agree OP, of course not everyone will be a parent of a teen, and not all sibling teens will have the same problems/issues even when parented in the same way by the same parents.
However unlike the pp who gave examples of driving an electric car/travelling to germany, almost everyone has an opinion of parenting troubled teens and will pitch in a tell you. Whereas in people who haven't been to germany wont offer advice / comment in posts about what to see and and do in germany.
It's all too easy to be a smug before you actually experience parenting challenging teen behaviour , and I hold my hand up and say i thought it would never happen to me, it did!

I think this thread shows that you are right OP and could add a caveat that those with easy older teens also struggle to believe this is down to anything but their good parenting.

I work with difficult and vulnerable teens. Many had had chaotic lives for a long time but a good chunk of them have unmet SEN needs, have spiralled after abuse, have been exploited by older children/adults or have addiction issues. Many of these children come from otherwise stable homes. They have been tough to parent despite love, boundaries and support.

One of mine was tricky and I knew he would be from his earliest years. It was our relationship and his personal development that I invested in and we got through the trickiest stages and came out the other side. He is very reflective and firmly believes it was the love, the talking and the focus on his development that got him through (alongside the knowledge that violence for example would equal arrest). He developed strategies to manage his behaviours and feelings and is an entirely wonderful adult who still uses the same strategies when occasionally needed.

I've just read the wankiest threat about buying 7 YO 50 books.... FFS
Who cares. Currently my 18YO DS is at his gardening job fir the summer before Uni, DD 15 is still in bed and DS16 is playing on PS.
My kids are all pretty good and the 18 DS does still listen because he needs his bed and parents money to get him through Uni.

That 50 books thread is such a stealth bost 🤮

What is 'wankiest' about buying children books for an eight year old? I used to buy them all the time, not 50 all at once but they added up. I also devoured books at that age.

Nail on the head. Discipline and boundaries need to start at an early age then become engrained as "habit" before the difficult teenage years.

Like training a dog. You do it when it's a puppy, not when it's an adolescent!

Of course, no guarantees and even well disciplined teens can go off the rails, but the likelihood is reduced.

I'm only going to say all of this once and for the record, it does NOT apply to any children either additional and/or behavioural needs OR children who have suffered irreparable trauma. That is a separate issue and must be dealt with on a carefully considered case-by -case basis.

I am a child psychotherapist, and this is based on both research (fractionally my own) and is also experience based, and the overriding ultimate factor is this:

'The relationship you have with your children when they are born, throughout the early years, and how you trial-and-error manage situations as they arise, will ultimately determine how a child behaves, reacts and incites in their late teens, early adulthood and beyond.'

This is a general take based on years of research and human personal experiences.

On a personal basis - do not push too much, do not pull away too much. Be present, be their CONSTANT, firmly initiate a tracker but ensure they feel like it is for safety and not for snooping. How you manage that is up to the individual parent and there is absolutely no linear response...

but it starts in the early years, only then you lay the foundations for the years to come...be their role model, their everything and their constant...don't judge them but remind them how to be a good person...demonstrate how YOU are a good person...but talk about things you could have done better too. Humans aren't perfect. Relate to them a bit, laugh about the odd silly thing you did when you were young. They CANNOT relate to you if there is no means to do so. Therefore, they won't get onto your level and may rebel.

It's worth pointing out that how present you are in your children's' lives, is a huge factor. If you didn't want children and/or aren't that interested in them, put your work ahead of their needs, or yourself...or favour one child over another...and so on...do NOT expect that child to be the sort of person you think they should be...all behaviour is communication and every response prompts some kind of reaction, positive or negative. It's human behaviour.

most of all, lean in to what your child is saying, actively listen, care, relate, relay you're here for them without pushing it too much. As long as you're doing all you can, can anyone ask for more?

I think it’s the making a post online about it to show off that gets people’s backs up lol

oh wow! I didn’t realise you had to start this from an early age. I thought you could just let them be wild and then suddenly impose rules on them when they turn 16. Thanks that’s been really helpful.

@kindyetfirm84

The relationship you have with your children when they are born, throughout the early years, and how you trial-and-error manage situations as they arise, will ultimately determine how a child behaves, reacts and incites in their late teens, early adulthood and beyond

how do you account for the vastly differing behaviours of DC who have grown up together and been parented in the same way? Especially those who are very close in age?

isn’t this just a modern way of blaming the mother? At what point do young adults and adults have to take responsibility for their own behaviour? I simply refuse to believe that an adult man who a for example - a violent rapist behaves that way ultimately because of the way he was parented.

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said about being present, listening, staying consistent and building a strong relationship.

What I don’t agree with is the idea that the early relationship will ultimately determine how a child behaves as an older teen or adult. It matters but it isn’t the whole story.

Children have their own personalities and temperaments. Then there are friends, school, relationships, social media, mental health, drugs, life events and simple bad luck. Two children can be raised in the same home and turn out completely differently.

You also exclude children with additional needs or trauma, but that is a very large number of families. You can’t remove all the complicated cases and then say the remaining pattern proves the point.

The danger with this argument is that it quickly becomes: if your older teen is struggling, you must not have been present enough, consistent enough or interested enough when they were younger. Sometimes that may be true. Sometimes it absolutely is not.

Good parenting improves the odds. It does not guarantee the outcome.

Where I am most are earning money by 16 or 17, which is the age mentioned in the thread?
In Australia they cant get a phone until age 18 in their own name so that can be a reminder of when they need to rein their behaviour in a bit or the adult whose name its in can get it turned off.

So, you can lay into others parenting, but if anyone questions you its an 'attack' 🤔
It looks like you have 1 (one ) child and think you are the world expert on parenting because you happened to get a child that doesnt have any serious mental health concerns. Do you actually think that in larger families where one of those kids has issues, the parents didnt love that kid and only loved the others? 😅😅😅😅

Agree but I don’t think that poster has any interest in discussion, they’re more focussed on trying to create drama

Hi, thanks for the insightful message - this is very much appreciated.

You're correct that I did exclude ALN/SEN, behaviour and trauma. You're right that it does cover a significant number of families and that's why it's a separate issue. The main issue being - the amount of help and support available to those who need it the most, and can't seem to access it. It's also a postcode lottery when it comes to funded support, which is also another matter entirely.

I honestly don't think I've proved or intended to prove any point - only inasmuch that it generally covers neurotypical families and what a parent of one such individual 'is' able to do within their power in the early years. All we can do as health/education etc providers, is persist with what the origins of early life should look like, and keep that in mind before people do have children.

I also agree that it's not always the case, and some children may go down a slippery slope or have a rough ride for multiple reasons - bereavement, family break up and so on. I did point out it isn't linear and I do mean that in the general sense.

I appreciate you pointing out these important issues and am thankful you've provided an articulate and thoughtful response RE anything that may have been missed.

Please please tell me you aren't actually a child psychotherapist?

How patronising all your post is. As well as simplistic - as if all you describe was easy to do! Most caring parents are of course trying to do all of this, to the best of their ability. When faced with a challenging teen, the lofty notions of lean in to what your child is saying, actively listen, care, relate, relay you're here for them without pushing it too much prove singularly ineffective.

I would bet parents who are dealing with whatever difficult situation their teen presents are doing exactly this. However, the teen in the situation is most likely to laugh in the face of this, it is certainly not some transformative panacea. And that's the agony of it all.

I do believe that the approaches you suggest, which are really just good, interested parenting, ultimately bear fruit, beyond the teen years, so of course it matters. But in the moment* *when parents might be driven to distraction about whatever particular challenge is presented, they are not effective.

Children have their own personalities and temperaments. Then there are friends, school, relationships, social media, mental health, drugs, life events and simple bad luck. Two children can be raised in the same home and turn out completely differently.
You also exclude children with additional needs or trauma, but that is a very large number of families. You can’t remove all the complicated cases and then say the remaining pattern proves the point.

Yes. There are so many variables. And the variable also of the behaviour pattern changing constantly, and the teen themselves can't explain - for example, it might have been possible to discuss a behavioural challenge openly and productive with your teen, and come up with what appears to be a solution. The next week, it's not working anymore. And the teen can't explain why, they don't know! They meant it when they first said it, but now somehow, it's not working.

I also agree about trauma - it can mean so much, and I'm wary of using it too glibly, conscious that there are some very difficult, seriously traumatic situations that people are dealing with. But in most teens with challenging behaviour, some form of trauma exists underneath, I suggest - it might not feel like trauma to everyone, and it might take a while to uncover, and it almost certainly won't be described as such by the teen. That's the difficulty - they don't know themselves. It's often possible to see a pattern or a link after the event, but in the throes of the challenges, it isn't easy to do that.

I don't think that's that rare is it?

I don't think I've ever heard 18yo DD shout (aside from to be heard over the music at a gig etc.) Neither DP and I are shouters, so it's just not something she does either.

I'm not saying she's perfect, she's been surly, patronising, sarcastic, monosyllabic at times over the years, and can eye-roll for Britain. But largely she's really easy to parent.

You say in your OP that posters have no idea what parenting 16 - 18 year olds are like. And yes, that'll be true of some people. But some of us have just gotten lucky, and so have no idea what parenting difficult teenagers is like.

We've had our issues with DD, but if we told her prior to her turning 18 this year that she couldn't go somewhere or do something, then yes, she'd likely argue with us, but she'd accept our decision was final. But largely she wouldn't have asked us for anything that we'd have said no to in the first place.

People can only offer advice based of their own parenting experience. And that advice will be based on parenting their own kids. So sometimes that advice is terrible.

What jobs are all these 16 year olds doing @TheAmberKoala ?

Does your dd have siblings?

You say you’ve “gotten lucky” and have no idea what parenting a difficult teenager is like. There’s nothing wrong with admitting that. Where it becomes a problem is when people with that experience tell parents of struggling teens to “just say no”, “don’t let them go” or “take their phone”, as though it’s that simple.

Also, you don’t have to be “a shouter” to raise your voice. Those are two different things. I think it’s quite rare for voices never to be raised over the course of bringing up a child to adulthood. Most families have moments of frustration, disagreement or heightened emotion. Never shouting is one thing. Never once raising your voice is another.

Your daughter sounds like a sensible, respectful young woman. That’s great. But if she’d have accepted your decision anyway, then you haven’t had to find out what happens when a determined 17-year-old simply refuses.

I also agree that people can only offer advice based on their own experience. The issue isn’t that they’re offering it. It’s when they assume that because it worked in their family, any parent whose teenager won’t comply must have failed to parent properly.

There’s a big difference between saying, “This is what worked for us,” and saying, “Just do this.” One acknowledges that families differ. The other assumes the solution is universal.

Advice based on experience is valuable. But it also needs a bit of humility because none of us has experienced every kind of teenager.

But does everyone posting on a thread have to have lived in experience before offering advice? Yes it might not be appropriate for the OP but why can’t they post their view.

As long as there’s no nastiness, I don’t see the problem. The Op can just ignore and move on

Do you post on threads where OP’s are suffering with very very difficult teens and asking for advice @Twile ?

Oh I agree with pretty much all of that!

I'm not trying to excuse why people give useless advice like that, or say that it's helpful. Just pointing out that sometimes it's not because they have no experience of teenagers at all, but that the experience they do have of teenagers are ones who wouldn't say "Boo" to a goose.

Sometimes people with a little bit of experience are more likely to give bad advice than the ones with none!

Edit: And no @Weekendnaughtiness , DD has no siblings, which may well contribute to the lack of shouting!