to think some people on here have no idea what 16-18 year olds are actually like?

[Twile]

I’ve noticed that some posters on here seem to have no idea what parenting an older teenager is actually like.

Someone will post about their 16-18 year old being completely out of control - staying out all night, drinking, vaping, refusing school or college, being verbally abusive, getting involved with unsuitable partners or simply refusing to follow any rules.

Without fail, there are replies saying things like:

“Just stop them going.”
“Take their phone off them.”
“Ground them.”
“You’re the parent - just say no.”
“I’d never allow that”

It makes me wonder whether these people have actually parented an older teen.

A 16-18-year-old is not the same as a 10-year-old. They’re often physically bigger than you, legally have increasing autonomy, can leave the house if they choose, earn their own money and in many cases simply refuse to comply. You can’t physically force them to stay indoors, attend college, end a relationship or make sensible choices. And nor should you.

Of course boundaries still matter, and parenting doesn’t stop at 16. But the strategies change. You’re often relying on influence rather than control, and sometimes you’re choosing the least bad option rather than the ideal one.

And how would they ‘not get away with it’?

What would you actually do?

I think this is what these posters don’t understand, my children would not do that, because it would not be tolerated. And that no tolerance isn’t built in the moment, but in years and years of consistency and boundary setting.

I’m watching my nieces and nephews be raised and the way the parents overlook what they seem to think is low level stuff (or don’t even notice?? I don’t know) and I just think, god just you wait. The way they let them talk to them, shocks me every time I see them.

Really? Only takes one second to find evidence to the contrary.

But this is exactly the point.

Many parents absolutely set boundaries, practiced polite, respectful behaviour with their DC when young, had appropriate consequences. And still faced DC in teen years who were impervious to boundaries or sanctions, and made choices they couldn’t have imagined.

That they did so is not universally down to lack of consistent, authoritative parenting when they were younger.

I think this is far too simplistic. Plenty of parents are consistent, set clear boundaries from an early age and still have teenagers who become rude, defiant or difficult. Children are not blank slates and parenting is only one influence among many. Temperament, neurodiversity, mental health, friendships, trauma and adolescence itself can all affect behaviour.

Saying “my children would never do that because it wouldn’t be tolerated” also confuses not permitting behaviour with being able to prevent it. A parent can challenge disrespect every single time and the child may still do it. Boundaries do not guarantee obedience.

You are also only seeing brief snapshots of your nieces’ and nephews’ lives. Their parents may choose not to correct every minor incident publicly, or may be dealing with things you know nothing about. It is very easy to look at someone else’s children and assume you can predict how they will turn out.

Good parenting matters enormously but the idea that well-behaved teenagers are simply the result of years of firm boundaries, while difficult teenagers must have been allowed to get away with too much is unfair and often completely wrong.

@tilypu the average MNs user is older though, it’s not a “young” site.

We set years of boundaries with consistency. My children weren’t rude to us and were lovely, lovely kids. Then several circumstances and difficulties out of our control collided with a domino effect. It can happen to anybody and does as there are countless influences, people and circumstances in the lives of teenagers.

Send them to bed without any supper?

Make them write lines?

Thanks @Twile for this thread which I’ve read in full.

One reason I think for the lack of understanding, and corresponding often-judgmental advice given, is the degree of nuance and variation in teen issues, which is so hard to capture in an OP, and therefore leads to lots of assumptions in the replies.

Like adults, teens are multi-faceted - the same rude, aggressive, problematic-at-school child can also be loving, positive, and well-behaved in another situation. But it doesn’t take away from the utter challenge of dealing with that issue.

There is also, I believe, so much that is a mystery - how can children (teens) in the one behave so differently and make completely different choices when they’ve broadly been parented the same way? But they do.

Like all of parenting, most caring parents will blame themselves or feel they’ve done something wrong, when their teen behaves problematically. And that’s possibly true, but it’s not the whole story.

On MN, there is a tendency to flat, one-dimensional replies that make snap judgments on both the problematic teen, and the OP, and seem not to care about the hurt that can be caused.

I am not talking in absolutes and accept that. No one is guaranteed a well behaved teenager no matter how they parent, however, I equally do not believe that challenging teenage years are inevitable, and thinking they are just creates lackadaisical parenting.

Behaviour in schools has drastically deteriorated in the last 20 years, parents have got to take some responsibility for that. A lot of parents just ride off the back of “eye roll, teenagers”. In my opinion previous generations were more hands off and yet had a better grip of instilling respect. I’m not saying that was perfect…I’m sure some of that respect instilling was abuse, but the way we are with kids now is breeding entitlement.

Maybe the parents here are the ones with inevitably hard teenagers, maybe with firmer parenting they wouldn’t be, I don’t know. But what I do know is I am shocked by what I see out and about that I would not accept, but others seem to be accepting. I wonder what early behaviour exhibited by some of these teens was overlooked, and what I would have nipped in the bud.

💯 this.

I do think that one common mistake is assuming that when a teenager plays up, it must always just be because they're hormonal and stupid and they get dismissed. From my memory of being a teen, when someone was being consistently difficult, there was always a cause of some kind. It wasn't necessarily something the parents were doing, but it wasn't out of nowhere and inexplicable.

I also think people often forget just how young and unknowing teenagers are, and expect a lot more emotional maturity from them than is reasonable, often more than the adults are displaying themselves. "They need to learn a life lesson in <<insert noble cause here>>" so often just means "I want them to do what I want and shut up and smile about it".

But you are still making a fairly strong causal assumption. That the behaviour you see now is likely to be the result of things the parents failed to “nip in the bud” earlier. That may sometimes be true but it is impossible to know from observing a family briefly in public.

Parents can challenge behaviour consistently for years and still have a teenager who rolls their eyes, speaks rudely or pushes every boundary. The fact that a parent does not react in the way you would does not necessarily mean they are accepting it. They may have already addressed it repeatedly, may be choosing not to escalate in public or may know that a confrontation at that moment will make things worse rather than better.

I also think “previous generations had more respect” needs examining. Children may have appeared more compliant because they were frightened of adults, had less freedom to express disagreement, or knew that questioning authority would bring harsh consequences. That can produce obedience, but obedience is not always the same as respect. We also hear much more now about children’s behaviour and mental health than previous generations did, so comparisons are not straightforward.

Of course parents have responsibility and some parents are inconsistent or excuse too much as normal teenage behaviour. But deteriorating behaviour in schools cannot simply be traced back to softer parenting. Schools are dealing with larger classes, reduced support, unmet additional needs, social media, disrupted education, family stress and wider cultural changes.

The danger in saying “my children would not do that because I would not tolerate it” is that it turns a complicated issue into a verdict on other parents. You know what you would accept; you do not necessarily know what they have tried, what their child is dealing with or whether firmer parenting would have changed the outcome.

I am seeing brief snap shots exactly so I dread to think what they’re like at home. They are not yet 10 and they eye roll at their parents, they shout rudely “MUM!”, “I’ve already said I don’t want that!”. I can tell you now my children would never act like that with me because they know exactly what the response would have been. And that is precisely my point, this behaviour was not addressed and even you defending it shows how different parenting can be. And that is why I am so much more confident in my parenting in this regard (don’t get me wrong I absolutely do not think I am perfect, I have plenty of things I worry about my approach with) but discipline, manners and respect is not that area. I think the fact we see such different behaviours in different cultures shows how culture (with a small c so to speak) has an impact.

Let’s stop defending bad teenage behaviour please, I honestly think this is what is breeding such rudeness and levels of entitlement in society today.

equally do not believe that challenging teenage years are inevitable, and thinking they are just creates lackadaisical parenting.

Who has said they are?

wonder what early behaviour exhibited by some of these teens was overlooked, and what I would have nipped in the bud.

I can’t give you empirical evidence but I’d say this is a minor to insignificant factor.

I was a firm (perhaps too firm, I think now) parent when they were little (single parent of 3, felt v conscious of needing to be a ‘good parent’) and honestly, I often inwardly judged relaxed parents who seemed to tolerate more tantrums, rudeness, whining, poor attitude towards them. Now we are all at the teen stage, I see no link between these kids & poor behaviour as teens - they’re all fine.

In the vast majority of cases, challenging teen behaviour does not come from poor boundary setting when they were small. It’s a whole other world. And conversely, having set those boundaries and had consequences, does nothing to guarantee positive teen experiences.

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t happen, it’s all part of raising children well - but the link you believe in doesn’t exist, in the main

And you’re defending parentings and assuming it’s not them? How is that any different? Neither of us know for sure, we’re not studying this in any great length, we are commenting from our own experience and forming opinions. I think I am right, you think you’re right, the truth will be different within different families.

Agree but I guess people take comfort that it’s something in their control & then pay themselves on the back and judge others for not being as good parents as them.

Well the point is if I'd never been to Germany or driven an electric car I wouldn't be giving people advice on going to Germany or driving an electric car.

But seeing a brief snapshot does not justify assuming the behaviour must be even worse at home. It may be but it may also be the opposite: children sometimes behave less well around relatives, when tired, overstimulated or testing boundaries in a different setting.

An eye roll or a rude “MUM!” from a child under ten is not evidence that the parents have never addressed manners or discipline. Children repeat behaviour they have been corrected for all the time. The real question is not whether a child ever behaves rudely, but how the parent responds over time and whether the behaviour gradually improves.

Saying, “My children would never do that because they know what the response would be,” may show that your children were more compliant with you, but it does not prove that your approach would produce the same result with every child. Some children respond quickly to firm consequences. Others become more oppositional, anxious or secretive. A child appearing respectful can also reflect fear of the response rather than genuine respect.

Nobody is defending rudeness by recognising that behaviour has causes and that parents cannot control every word or gesture their child makes. Challenging poor behaviour and understanding it are not opposites. Nor does refusing to condemn a parent on the basis of one exchange mean accepting entitlement.

Culture clearly influences behaviour but cultural differences also influence what adults consider rude, how openly children are allowed to disagree, and how much obedience is valued. A quieter or more deferential child is not automatically better parented just as an outspoken child is not automatically entitled.

You may be right that some parents overlook behaviour they should address. What you cannot reasonably conclude is that every child who speaks rudely has lacked firm parenting or that your confidence in your own methods gives you enough information to judge what another parent has or has not done.

I think the problem with these threads is some people are talking generally, and then others say well you’re absolutely wrong because that wasn’t true for me. And I suppose we are all doing that to some degree.

If we put aside our own experiences for a second, what do people point at as the reason for deteriorating behaviour at school if it’s not parenting?

I don’t even care if it’s better or worse at home. What I witness was unacceptable. And would not be tolerated by me.

I know for sure because we’ve sat through countless therapies, meetings and parental support. The message that it absolutely wasn’t our fault has been driven home repeatedly from a range of highly qualified professionals alongside how difficult it is to parent teenagers in this modern world and how many other influences and people they have to contend with in their lives which play a massive part.

I’ve actually had professionals pick apart phrases quoted in the OP.

So well put 👏

I made these assumptions with myself - with my youngest, challenging DS, I became harsher and angrier and issuing more consequences - until I realised I was running out of road, to no effect, in precisely the way you’ve described earlier. I was desperate, for example, for the school to know I was a Good Parent, that he wasn’t being Let Away With It.

One thing that helped is even in the desperate times, we are a family that talks. I’m nowhere at the end of the journey here but working on carefully building in moments where DS will open up even a little about his behaviour has massively helped my understanding.

I actually think taking a step back and trying to keep a loving relationship is a million times harder than being the angry, consequence-focused parent (that so many think is the only path).

No one is defending bad teenage behaviour?

People are saying 'I wouldnt tolerate it' isnt useful advice for somone seeking help trying to tackle bad behaviour.

The person clearly isnt tolerating it as they want help solving it. If they were tolerating it they wouldnt seek help. So lack of tolerance is not the answer they need.

When pushed by what does lack of tolerance mean peoole cant explain what they would do as its often never been tested. What that actually looks like, how it works once your child has rebelled and called your bluff on it essentially. Its like that 123 magic i used on my young children. Never got to 3 because my child was easy. But if I regularly got to 3, that technique was out the window as useless.

I agree, I would never say it to someone seeking help. This is not a thread from a parent seeking help. It’s a discussion.