to think some people on here have no idea what 16-18 year olds are actually like?

[Twile]

I’ve noticed that some posters on here seem to have no idea what parenting an older teenager is actually like.

Someone will post about their 16-18 year old being completely out of control - staying out all night, drinking, vaping, refusing school or college, being verbally abusive, getting involved with unsuitable partners or simply refusing to follow any rules.

Without fail, there are replies saying things like:

“Just stop them going.”
“Take their phone off them.”
“Ground them.”
“You’re the parent - just say no.”
“I’d never allow that”

It makes me wonder whether these people have actually parented an older teen.

A 16-18-year-old is not the same as a 10-year-old. They’re often physically bigger than you, legally have increasing autonomy, can leave the house if they choose, earn their own money and in many cases simply refuse to comply. You can’t physically force them to stay indoors, attend college, end a relationship or make sensible choices. And nor should you.

Of course boundaries still matter, and parenting doesn’t stop at 16. But the strategies change. You’re often relying on influence rather than control, and sometimes you’re choosing the least bad option rather than the ideal one.

It is different because I am not assuming the parents are blameless. I am saying the evidence you have is not enough to conclude that their parenting caused the behaviour.

You are making a positive claim: that these children behave this way because their parents failed to address it and that firmer parenting would probably have prevented it. Pointing out other possible explanations is not the same as claiming those explanations must be true. It is simply refusing to treat one interpretation as established fact.

Yes we all form opinions from experience but not all opinions are equally well supported. “This behaviour concerns me and I would handle it differently” is reasonable. “I know my children would never do this, therefore these parents must have failed to instil respect” goes much further.

The truth will vary between families, which is precisely why certainty about other people’s parenting is misplaced. You may be right in some cases. You may also be judging parents who have consistently challenged the behaviour and are dealing with a child whose temperament or needs are very different from your own children’s.

Honestly you’re trying to take me personally when I don’t know you. I don’t doubt you. Just because you don’t fit my broad opinion doesn’t mean my broad opinion is not correct.

You are entitled to find the behaviour unacceptable and to say you would handle it differently. But “I would not tolerate it” does not answer the point being made. Most parents do not approve of rudeness either. The disagreement is about whether a child behaving badly proves the parent has tolerated it.

Children sometimes do things that are unacceptable despite being corrected, punished or given clear boundaries. A parent cannot guarantee that a child will never roll their eyes, shout or answer back. They can only decide how to respond when it happens.

Yes the behaviour may have been unacceptable. What does not automatically follow is that the parent accepted it, caused it or failed to address it. Those are separate claims and a brief snapshot cannot establish them.

I just think there is a lot of defence here, I am genuinely sorry for the engaged parents who have done their best and are struggling, but I think we have a parenting crisis and people are tip toeing around it. I’d be fascinated to see some secondary school teachers opinions here.

I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have had to speak to DDs (17 and 14) about manners, attitude etc. And believe me I would pull them up on that sort of stuff if necessary. I’d like to think they have seen respectful behaviour modelled and discussed at home 😇 but I’m not delusional; it’s mostly luck (their natural disposition plus fortunate circumstances).

Well it does because I’m speaking from experience and knowledge gleaned from professionals who work with countless struggling teenagers and families. You’re speaking from your own experience of parenting that will have been influenced by a huge dollop of luck.

Well I entirely disagree. I do hope you are at least relenting that your very goady thread assuming anyone not agreeing with you just isn’t doing so because they have not experienced 16-18, as if you are the oracle. As this thread has demonstrated, plenty of parents at and beyond this stage throughly disagree with you.

I think that’s exactly what it means 😂

You are making broad statements, as if they can be universally applied. @Twile has explained far better that I why that doesn’t hold.

Your ‘broad opinion’ is incorrect. Seeing individual, random, samples of behaviour and extrapolating them to problematic teenage behaviour doesn’t make sense.

One thing I would say to those currently in the midst of really difficult teenage years. They do come out of it and what you learn along the way helps your relationship as they move into adulthood. We talk so much more openly now
and I think we are closer in some ways than many other families. I also think we they have a better understanding and grounding for the future ie they know we’re always here to support but they have to do it for themselves and they can.A valuable life lesson. I’m actually grateful it happened whilst they’re at home and we could support them through it. Far better than teens holding it together in silence then crumbling as adults with more responsibilities and less support.

Perhaps I'm setting myself up for terrible teenage behaviour, but I don't think an eye roll or "answering back" (which so often sounds to me like a parent getting petty about having the last word) is necessarily a huge problem. We made the oldest clear away the mess in his room the other day and when I told him it was time, he rolled his eyes and said, "This is rubbish." I said no matter, it needed to be done so get on with it now and it will be finished soon. He said, "It's rubbish" again, but he went up and did it and then we went on to the fun activity and all was fine.

Is it really so bad that there was an eye roll and an expression of frustration that I didn't argue about? He did the actual task. I don't think he had to love or enjoy it, he just had to do it, and he did. I remember so many situations escalating in our house as a kid because it wasn't enough just to do as you were told, you had to do it with absolutely no sign of displeasure either. And there would have been far less displeasure without the ridiculous escalations over the displeasure, which all fed into the stressful, shouty, abusive amd horrible household that I was then a teenager in.

I don’t agree we’ve a ‘parenting challenge’ but I do agree it’s more challenging in schools now (especially in the UK - I’m in Ireland - from what I read on MN).

One of the reasons for this is that we parent and teach children differently now. In my school years, there was right (the teachers / parents) and wrong (the kids). I was a perfectly-behaved, academic child; I was also bullied for most of my school years. I told no-one, there was no point. My parents were fine, but they were of their generation - we didn’t do emotions. In school, misbehaving kids were not generally supported (although my school was better than many) and dropped out, usually.

Today, we care about the voice of the child, we listen as parents and educators, we look for shared solutions. This is both right, and harder to do, and does also mean the binary way of ‘controlling’ behaviour doesn’t work, leading to much more challenging situations. There’s also a whole plethora of social / societal influences that weren’t there 35 - 40 years ago, including social media, and ways of communicating that more easily exclude adults.

There’s plenty positive aspects to how teens live too - they have strong social connections, ways to get help, are able to articulate preferences and needs, in a way previous generations didn’t / couldn’t. I’m endlessly impressed with teens I meet, my own and others, who bear so little resemblance to how I was.

I am the opposite op. I am constantly surprised what parents seem willing to put up with, but that's just based on me and my experiences. Not all 15/16/17 year old are wild, in fact I would be suprised if this is the majority/ 'usual' behaviour, and some do respect parents reasonable boundaries. A lot comes down to personality and who they knock around with, but that shouldn't be a suprise to the parents who will have worked with them for the past 15/16/17 years and know their mates. But yes, every teen is different and every parent is different and you just need to find what works for you and not assume all other kids are the same.

My kids have not had an Indian-style upbringing. No smacking, though we were strict and had firm boundaries. They are now at university or in graduate jobs. Neither has ever smoked, vaped, taken drugs, had underage sex or got in trouble with the law. We have a very close relationship. They are still v anti-drugs and they still seek our advice on many issues. Hitting kids at primary school is definitely not essential to bringing up well-behaved teens. You write as if that’s the only way!

Gosh yes, I agree. I held so much in as a compliant, nervous, academic & people-pleasing child and teen. I was able to address some of this at university. However, a lot stayed to adulthood and was partly the cause of me meeting my husband (to be) at 20, who ended up being horribly abusive and although he’s now an ex, it’s been a long painful adulthood of dealing with the aftermath.

I’ve had a very tough couple of years with two of my DC. It’s not over but my understanding has improved, and also my sense of blame - I recognise it’s not me, necessarily and I must stop blaming myself. However, throughout it all, we all talk, they express themselves, there is honesty. And I hope what they will know and keep realising is that we can get through anything, if we want to, and they can talk about everything, and I’ll still be there, loving them, regardless of the behaviour.

That last paragraph sums it up for me.❤️Also we’re parents for a lot longer than the teenage years. I think on MN there is a prevalence for treating the first 18 years like a competition when actually we parent a lot longer than that. You’re not a bad parent because your kids had difficult teenage years or toddler years. Part of parenting is supporting alongside, learning and growing with them. I didn’t do everything right but I didn’t cause their difficulties,I’m learning in difficult circumstances and I hope supporting them overall to be adults that can navigate life well.

I actually think there is tolerance and expectation of rudeness from teens. In this country we are ‘expected’ to have nightmares during the teen years. People laugh and say good luck when the kids become teenagers. I see many rude behaviours excused on here with the phrase ‘oh it’s their hormones’.

That is not how I was brought up and definitely not how I bought my kids up. Rudeness was challenged. We had some leeway but there was still a basic expectation of courtesy and participation in family life.

I find the expectations of teenagers so low on here. For example, holidays. I see so many people saying why should teenagers go on holiday with their parents, ‘I would have not wanted to go away with my mum and dad when I was 14’ My kids still love our family holidays in their early 20s! And everybody I know still has a family holiday for at least a week a year with their young adult children, sometimes with partners in tow.

It is an alien world to me here where teenagers are essentially given carte blanche to behave badly because of their age. And then at 18 all support is withdrawn. If an 18-year-old is struggling at university or in a relationship, I roll
my eyes at comments saying well there’s nothing you can do, they are an adult, they don’t need mummy to help them etc etc.

In my world teenagers and young adults are still our kids and part of our family life.

I think we need to raise the bar in this country re expectation from teenagers. There are many decent ones around and they should not all be tarred with the same brush.

I actually do know quite a few teens even though my kids are younger. My observations so far:

not ONE of them just goes off out the door and behaves like they own the house. Just this weekend a friends 16 and almost 18yo asked their parents if they could go out, told them where they will be and what time they are coming home. Arranged lifts etc.

My friends KNOW their kids friends and their parents very well. I think this is so crucial.

Ive never seen any of these behave like absolute pigs living in a sty. Chores without any bribery like payment has always been part of their life. This is what we do as well. My kids have chores. We do not pay them to participate and be a part of a family. Instead we all pitch in and share the load.

I also have a huge extended family with lots of teens and I really can’t recognise what I read on here. Like different worlds.
i think it just comes down to how you raise them.

My experience of people with unruly children is that they appeal to “every child is different”, “personality” and “temperament” to justify their child’s behaviour, yet are very rigid, judgmental and unaccepting of difference among the adults in their life. That’s just my experience.

@ContactPress💯

we have rules in our home. It doesn’t matter if you’re 16 or 18, you might have more legal responsibilities at those ages but FAR from an adult.
I don’t understand people when they say they ‘can’t’ tell their child what to do or how to behave just because they’re 16.

I read so much about vile teens and I think parents have raised them to be that way. They are entitled because they were raised to feel entitled.

That’s a lovely post. The idea of us, as parents, having compassion for ourselves is so important.

And you're putting the fact you've never done drugs down to being beaten by your parents and given corporal punishment in primary school?

All that often does by adulthood is convince them it's ok to be violent to others and to accept violence from others. It must be ok because their parents did it.

And as you'll know, a lot of women who were raised this way will accept violence from their husbands, because being hit is 'normal'.

I would have obeyed my parents and accepted punishment when I was in 6 form

My DC do all of what you describe - they ask to go out, they agree times to come home, do chores, participate in the house, are polite & chatty to adults, generally.

So what’s the problem I’ve had with two of them then, as I probably appear to be describing a fairly bucolic and benign existence?

What you describe is no indicator of what challenges might exist that you’ve no idea of, just none.

think it just comes down to how you raise them.

A lot comes down to how they are raised of course, in terms of values. Teens making poor choices and behaving problematically is not necessarily related to how they were raised.

You present such a superficial idea of what teen behaviour might look like.

But disagreeing with your argument does not mean anyone is claiming to be “the oracle,” nor does the number of parents who agree with you prove that your interpretation is correct.

The point was that parenting a 16–18 year old can look very different from predicting how you would respond before reaching that stage. Some parents with older teenagers agree with you. Others do not. That shows variation not that one side has won the argument.

Calling the thread “goady” also avoids the substance of the discussion. You began by making confident judgments about other parents and suggesting that their teenagers’ behaviour may result from insufficient firmness. It is reasonable for people to challenge that certainty.

You can maintain that boundaries matter without concluding that parents whose teenagers behave badly must have failed to establish them. People can disagree with your conclusions without claiming superior knowledge or denying your experience.

I couldn’t disagree more.

I disagree completely that we have low expectations for teens. I think instead we have wider, and more meaningful expectations. We don’t just want compliance and good behaviour, we want to see them develop into rounded, happy, productive people, invested in themselves, others & society.