Aibu thinking Scots shouldn't be wanting Argentina to win against England?

[Engerlund]

It's getting beyond banter now imo.

I know plenty of Scots agree with me.

I'm half Scottish (dad) so always support both. In the past I'd probably want Scotland to win if it was them against England to be honest. Although now because of the Argentina support I'm going off supporting Scotland.

I desperately want England to win this one more than against any other team.

You make a good point there.

Not the point of the thread at all but that's a ragingly impressive sum of money to raise at a school fete. Wtf was on the tombola?

I like how you singled out one part of my comment, to throw a tantrum over. the Scottish fans do that on any tournament we're lucky enough to qualify for. It's something to feel proud of.

Now who sounds bitter and jealous?

Stupid comparison.
its not any woman is it?
She constantly banged on about her disdain for England - then bloody moves here.
Has she suddenly decided she loves us after all?

Yes I agree with you and I like John, but I still miss Nicola!

No, that's just how you saw it. You have always had it in your head that being pro-Scotland, pro-managing our own affairs meant it was all about you, about hating you. Am I supposed to think you believe you have some innate right to dominate us politically, and opposing such a political system means we hate you?

Would you support China or the US dominating the UK politics? They have 85% say in a super government, formed in Beijing, that the UK is to be part of. Though don't worry, you'll have 8% representation in it.

And if not, why do you hate them so much? I mean, I presume you use technology and watch media from those countries, right?

I don't think the Scottish independence movement was predominantly about hating the English. There are legitimate reasons (North Sea oil, the fact the English keep voting for the Tories to punch them in the face and then the Scottish get punched too by de facto). Or just because people want to be independent l.

But there were also some elements to the independence campaign that did get nasty and divisive (eg talking about Edward 1 as football banter is one thing, having it as a genuine source of resentment against the English is as silly as English people non-ironically blaming Franve for the Normans or Norway for the Vikings. It's been 800 years.) It wasn't all of the independence movement but it did exist and was, I think, pushed at times by Sturgeon, for self serving reasons. And people that like division for divisions sake (god knows we have them in England too) were quite happy to fall behind her. And now she is quite well off and living in London.

She has never mentioned distain for the English.

That’s not what I said - I was replying about the charity donation.
by the way Taylor Swift donated 26 million on her wedding day.
do you literally spend all day writing on MN?
retired boomer?

Irony again!

"But there were also some elements to the independence campaign that did get nasty and divisive"

Within any movement, there's going to be some rotten eggs, unfortunately. And this is a broad movement. Anyone who supports an independent Scotland, and it's pretty broad on the political spectrum. Putting the SNP aside, which is itself a broad coalition, around a third of labour and a third reform supporters in Scotland, also support independence. And about 10% of Lib Dems and Tories do.

So while I do think it has a slight left of center epicenter, there's lots on either side.

It's also fair to expect things to get said in the heat of the moment, and get carried away. There was a lot of it on both sides. I have been told by an English man (on Quora) he hopes we get independence because he's dying to go to war with us. But I don't for a moment believe he speaks for the majority of unionists.

"Sturgeon at times pushed for self-serving reasons"

Perhaps, but the same can be said for the other side, right? Obviously they see it as a loss for them if Scotland goes. A loss to their territory, a loss on the world stage, a loss to park their nukes, etc. Politicians in England aren't just against independence because they adore us too much. I also believe most politicians are in politicians for self-serving reasons. There's so much money to be made in politics, both during your career, and after you've left it. Blair's raking in millions, giving speeches, and he's been out of power for decades.

"Edward I"

Fair point, but again, I think that's just how these exchanges escalate. I don't think any pro-independence supporter starts from there. But during discussions, history inevitably comes up, and the wars of independence in a whataboutism way between both sides. At some point we get to the Romans and Picts and it goes way off track. I want independence for current political reasons,and democratic reasons, not historical grievances.

She constantly banged on about her disdain for England

Total and utter nonsense.

"all politicians are in on it"
That's not actually true. By self serving I didn't mean serving the cause she was interested in (Scottish Independence in her case, Brexit in Farages) I meant self serving in serving their own individual interests. E.g. in Farage's case massive personal self enrichment. Allegedly. You can tell the difference between those who supported Brexit/anti-immigration platforms for personal political reasons (even if I don't agree). And those who support Farage because he annoys the "Libs" or he gives them a chance to feel aggrieved and besieged. The second group are the ones digging their heels in right now and who would support him no matter what comes up. I don't think human nature differs that much across the world and there are definitely people in Scotland with a similar thought process but a different hero.

I like football banter etc. but you were the one who said you would support Argentina because of all the people Edward first killed. I don't think it is that normal to got "off track" to that extent actually. There's nothing wrong with supporting Argentina (apart from the open racism shown by the team in this tournament etc but that probably matters more to me than you for other reasons).

Ironically that sort of is the situation Hong Kong finds themselves in (although without the same voting rights or protesting rights)
Or m, more aptly, the situation that people in the Falklands Islands would be in if they were given to Argentina. Which some people on this thread said they want presumably because it would piss of the English. Despite the Falklands Islanders not being English specifically.

The difference is, that China wouldn't allow a referendum on whether Hong Kongers want to be part of China. the Falklands Islands did have a referendum and voted 98% to remain a British protectorate. The Scottish Parliament voted for the Act of Union in 1707, and later in the 2014 referendum the Scottish people voted to stay part of the Union by 55%. Which is a much smaller majority than the Falklands but is a majority nonetheless.

So it's fine to want independence, but people using that as an excuse to want other people to lose their independence against their will,.and as a reason to support the country openly wanting to do that (not talking about football), kind of looks hypocritical, and is a perfect example of the independence campaign turning into something unpleasant and petty.

Too late to the party - sorry!

The Scots are allowed to support who they like (I'm English). I wouldn't expect them to support England - why would they?

But it does make them look pathetic and small-minded when the SNP makes childish statements like that. Who wants to look like a grudge-bearing, vindictive git?

Holy Jesus. This is embarrassing but I have only just now understood why it’s “Sweaty”.

🫢 as “Jock” rhymes with “sock”!

Oh you are changing the subject.
I don’t have tantrums. I will leave that up to you.

You’re comparing apples with oranges. Nicola Sturgeon was an elected politician for a party whose main policy is, and was, Scottish Independence.

Farage was briefly an MEP and even more briefly, a recent MP.

Nicola led her party along with Alex to an election win in 2011 after being elected in 1999, 2004, 2007 and 2011.

She then led her party alone to, first a majority of SNP MPs in the UK Parliament in 2015, then election wins in Scotland in 2016 and 2021.

She served three terms as FM of Scotland.

A record.

Comparing her to Nigel Farage is disingenuous at best and completely clueless at worst.

This is such an ignorant comment.

I now live in Argentina, but before that I lived in Spain for eight years. If you think racism isn't a problem there, or sexual violence is not an issue, you are very wrong. Just google Íñigo Errejón.

We ended up leaving Spain after living next to a neighbour who shouted racist abuse at my husband (who is a Brasilian). It was two years of absolute hell, and the police had no interest in taking any serious action. Day-to-day racism and negative treatment for being foreign was far more of an issue for us in Spain than it has been since we moved to Argentina.

I really wish people would stop making comments without (presumably, I apologise if I am wrong) having any lived experience of what they are saying.

There's racists everywhere, including the UK. However the actual Argentinian football team themselves seem to be very openly racist in some cases (Fernandez) and almost celebrating their ability to do so. Likewise, while many countries have issues with racist fans, the Argentinian fans have stood out as particularly bad. Possibly because the vibe on the whole during the world cup was quite positive. The UK had huge issues with racism but there was a move to kick racism out of football, clubs with fans that make racist chants are usually punished. England had a terrible reputation for football hooliganism during the 80s and worked really hard to turn that around. You can see from comments on here that some people still remember it.

So if course, if the actual Argentinian players are singing offensive songs about black French players, or if the fans are making monkey noises at black people with 0 pushback, the impression that people who don't know anything about Argentina will be that Argentinians are kind of OK with racism. And because it's the actual team doing it, it does sort of make sense to hold it against the team.

Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.

Earlier in this thread, I addressed the issue with fans from Argentina. Racism is never acceptable and there should be zero tolerance.

I am not going to try and explain some aspects of how things are in Argentina, and issues around around race and nationality. I suspect there is little point in me trying to explain because people seem to post things having already formed a strong opinion, but seemingly with very little experience of their own. It is also more difficult for people who do not speak Spanish to understand how the language is used.

I don't think the reaction to Argentinias chants was an inability to understand the delicate nuances of the Spanish language. They were being racist.

Again it wasn't just a few fans. It was literally the men kicking the ball round the pitch. If an English player was involved in that, I would want them to be sanctioned and ideally not sent to the world cup. So I'm not going to support the Argentinian team in the finals because they were the same people chanting horrible shit. It's not like some 3 degrees of separation or historical issues.

There is a person on this thread making very long posts about things they know nothing about.

To add to this, earlier this year there was a huge issue with a tourist from Argentina visiting Brasil and behaving in a racist way. They were arrested, dealt with, and the vast majority of people in Argentina were disgusted by the behaviour and how it reflected on them.

A couple of weeks ago, the Brasilian press was heavily reporting on a Spanish woman who was arrested at Guarulhos (Sao Paulo) airport for using racially abusive language. She is now also being dealt with by the authorities. Again, totally unacceptable.

As I have said, based on my experience, living in Argentina as an immigrant has been far easier than Spain. I am white, my husband is black.

Both socieities have their problem, but to try and claim one is superior to the other on this is completely false.

if you meant me...
Then maybe share what I got wrong?