India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

The muggers might have been born in France though. Is someone born in France but with parents from another country less French?

Whether they were or not, they were clearly horrible people, I'm not questioning that.

And yet you responded to, and about posts that were not specific to the topic of this thread.

Odd.

How do you know where the muggers were from? Why are you making assumptions based on race?

No, sadly they don't, they carry on behaving in just as disgusting a manner, they just pick on 12yo girls who don't have a voice to fight back.

That's the problem, goddess worship doesn't necessarily mean ordinary women are treated better any more than female leaders necessarily does. This would also fit with the earlier example of Mexico where the Virgin of Guadelupe is venerated. (Maybe 20th century Ireland is another example though it manifested differently).

Maybe it's a variants of the Madonna/Whore complex? Elevate the divine woman, denigrate the real one in comparison?

It's usually coming from the more Muslim countries isn't it where there is a separation of men and women. I assumed India was better generally because of the different religions and it's a democracy etc ie more progressive

Hinduism has many powerful goddesses etc but like a lot of countries with poor rural populations, men in those areas have a lot of power & women are not valued.

There is a huge youth population (youth bulges are often dangerous) and a surplus of young men. This adds to unrest & misogyny.

That said, as pps said it's a huge country and areas vary enormously. More cosmopolitan areas like Bangalore or Mumbai are probably better. Kerala or Goa too.

@JHound I've read enough of your posts to know your only interest on this thread is in insisting that misogyny is exactly the same in all groups of men, irrespective of cultural background and upbringing.

You have minimal interest in the safety of women. Oh sure, you'll claim you do, but your interest in their safety comes way down your list of priorities, far under your concerns for the rights of men to do what they want.

But no doubt you consider yourself to be progressive. The new version of progressive that is actually incredibly regressive.

Another driving factor is because they can .
Look at how hard we have had it and still have it,being "believed" if attacked and under going invasive procedures etc and we are an enlightened democracy and we promote it's wrong

One can't begin to imagine how far all these countries still have to go !

Not read all posts but I kinda understand this. My family are originally from India but I was born and brought up in UK. I went to India for the first time at 21 and behaviour similar to this shocked me so much I didn’t go back for over 10 years. I gave it 2 more goes after that and never felt comfortable so now have decided I won’t go again even though I have family there. I simply can’t get used to how anyone who’s disadvantaged (not just women- also anyone of low caste etc etc) are treated there. And I have no idea how anyone can love it unless they’re only seeing a very select snapshot.

Were they not from Africa logically? How am I getting this wrong?

Black French people came en masses from the colonies starting in the 1950s, so from then on at least some black French people were born there. Some might also be from the Carribean, eg. Guadeloupe was also a French colony.

The predominant religion in Mexico, South America, Lesotho and DRC is roman Catholicism, which is not Christianity. If anything you further proved my point.

Spain is not a Christian country. It is Roman Catholic. Roman Catholicism is a works-based salvation (no salvation) as opposed to Biblical salvation which is through Christ alone.

Look, it's hard to know without details we don't have, but you are wrong that mugging doesn't have a racial component.

In the UK in any case, many types of crimes have ethnic and racial elements that are pretty prominent, including gangs that do muggings. Gangs are organised around ethnicity a lot of the time.

I would be surprised if it's not the same in France.

I think this is the biggest factor I've seen around this issue.

Poor and often rural vs well off, educated, and urban.

And yes - when there is little hope of a wife and family for most young men, and no way to work toward it, it seems to create a toxic attitude.

Is someone born in France but with parents from another country less French?

Yes they are less French.
My little sister was born in the ME, trust me there's nothing Arabic about her!

So a person born in the UK whose family moved over in the Windrush generation from the Caribbean, they're not as British as me? A white British woman?

I don't know if you're correct or not, but I'm noticing something very strange about some feminists.

They will condemn- how can I say - native white British men for the relatively mild offence of wolf whistling all day long.

Yet an entire continent where women are treated badly is not condemned at all.

They'll also support widespread immigration of men from other cultures to the UK with a reputation for terrible treatment of women, too.

I have to phrase this carefully but my own take on this is that such women, deep down, wish the UK was overtaken by men from cultures (not race) who treat women like shit.

It's either that or suicidal empathy.

In my experience the women you're talking about are from 2 different tracks:

1. Women with ties to the cultures they defend
2. Women who live in white middle class enclaves who have zero actual interaction with misogynistic communities

I think if someone genuinely believes that some feminists want women as a class to be treated like shit then perhaps they haven't understood what a feminist is.

Yes! Nearly every thread about some 'dick/twat/pervert/given me the ick/loser/creep' you name it, is because some bloke dared to ask someone out, or a husband finds his wife sexually attractive and makes it known

But entire populations of men who come from countries where women are quite literally rubbish, thats ok. Please dont criticise them.

I think that you are correct.
In the instance of point 2, I guess it's easy to support something if it doesn't affect you personally.

I'll add a third possibility:

I think there might be something even more dark psychologically behind it.
It might be an expression of masochism.

It fits.
A person is a feminist, purportedly for the rights of women and girls, logically the last thing they'd want is a lot of men from cultures who treat women appallingly to move to the UK.

Yet they do.
And I'm wondering why.

We’ve found Central America pretty good for female travellers. Dd1 and I both travelled independently there isn’t the grim sexual hassle your get in India or North Africa as a young woman.

I think there comes a point in progressive logic where the competing needs of vulnerable groups collide and they dont know how to solve it in their heads.

What it does point to is a sense of ingrained subconscious misogyny in themselves. Ultimately when faced with two traditionally downtrodden groups (non white people vs women) they cant help but put women at the bottom of the pile.

You see the same logic at play in the trans rights debate