India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

[LondonLass40]

Just back from the Golden Triangle with my husband (43) and 12yr daughter. Stunning forts, incredible food ( lucky no Delhi belly 😀) amazing history is genuinely breathtaking.

But I’m struggling to process the darker side.

One afternoon in Delhi, my husband stayed at the hotel. I took my daughter to a busy market near cannaught place in broad daylight, crowded. A man walked past and grabbed my breast. Right in front of my daughter. He just kept walking. I froze. My poor girl kept asking why he touched Mummy.

Then there was the constant selfie nonsense when my husband was there and men lining up, putting their arms around me, getting too close while my husband stood there awkwardly not knowing what to do.

And the worst part was at the Red Fort queue. This guy kept pushing into me from behind – clearly not an accident. I turned around and shouted at him. He didn't run, didn't even look embarrassed , he just walked away ignoring me like I was invisible. I spoke to a security guard who just pretend to do something and did absolutely nothing.

I know these issues aren't isolated to India and this could happen in London too. But this was so blatant, so frequent, so relentless that I simply cannot ignore it. I've been to so many tourist destinations around the world and have never experienced harassment on this scale. It felt inescapable.

I don't know – does this only happen to Western women? I'm sure men like this do the same to Indian women too. How on earth do they deal with this every single day? I honestly don't think I'd go back.

Yes, I lived there. It's very orderly and strict, stepping out of line like that would mean jail and deportation.

Only been to UAE and Qatar (for work). Found them both extremely safe walking around alone. Was in Qatar before it became more popular with ex-pats and zero harassment. Any ogling was largely by Western foreign workers in some of the bars / restaurants we visited and I think that’s because we were a rarity being female in those establishments back in that time.

Ah, les nouveaux Français.

I ask do they police their own citizens if they were to harm expats of other nations?

Yikes.

You aren’t going to experience this from locals in the gulf states. It’s just not part of the culture to have the kind of street harassment you hear of in India.

I'd say to some extent but some more powerful citizens probably do get away with serious crimes, if I had to speculate - when I was there people were talking about a woman who was raped and murdered by two prominent locals and it covered up.
The other thing is if there were local-on-local crimes you just wouldn't hear about it or any outcomes as they were really private about that and posting rumours on social media, images, videos etc would get you into a lot of trouble.

So not the most free and easy society, but certainly safe and peaceful in day to day life.

Op, that sounds terrible.

Modi's government promotes Delhi & Golden Triangle as a tourist destination, but it's really not safe for women imo.

I agree with pps that Kerala, Goa, & Mumbai among others would have been better options.

Did you read the Foreign Office travel advice before you went? It's easy to forget this when getting excited about a holiday but you should always consult this, & other safety guides, beforehand.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/india/safety-and-security

There used to be a Lonely Planet programme back in the 1990's. The presenter went to rural Nepal and attended a wedding. The local custom was that a teenage girl would marry a teenage boy and then also marry all his younger brothers as they came of age. What they didn't mention or explain was that this was due to female infanticide. There were 5 or 6 men to every woman and that was how they dealt with the imbalance in adulthood.

It's a very dark and dangerous place outside the 'Western' world.

And now parts of India are whining about the impact that has on marriage options for their sons. A problem entirely of their own making. Same in parts of China.

What do you mean by 'the prevailing religion is different'?

Kerala has a famous Christian minority (18%) but is majority Hindu & also has many Muslims.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religionin_<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?cd=&opi=89978449&psig=AOvVaw3oBtGs3xCtNHahQ<u>2vjnhY&rct=j&sa=i&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FReligion</u>in<u>Kerala&ust=1784063937237000&ved=2ahUKEwjX84WbytCVAxWBdUEAHaatPaMQ1fkOegoIAggACAAICRAZ" rel="nofollow" target="blank">Kerala&ved=2ahUKEwjX84WbytCVAxWBdUEAHaatPaMQ1fkOegoIAggACAAICRAZ&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw3oBtGs3xCtNHahQ2vjnhY&ust=1784063937237000

Mumbai also had a Christian minority ( smaller at about 5%) but is also majority Hindu with Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, Parsis etc etc

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/09/21/religious-demography-of-indian-states-and-territories/&ved=2ahUKEwiOldvZytCVAxXPQEEAHThFJAcQ1fkOegoIAggACAEILxAM&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw0dqAtZVI5geKxHawefo1Ua&ust=1784064068430000

And Goa has a 25% Christian population, mostly Catholic, but it is also a majority Hindu state.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?cd=&opi=89978449&psig=AOvVaw1l3jRlXyp3k11ieNiPmvrb&rct=j&sa=i&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHinduism<u>in</u>Goa&ust=1784064179637000&ved=2ahUKEwjS1dOOy9CVAxWGU0EAHYjDOKgQ1fkOegoIAggACAAIChAX" rel="nofollow" target="blank">inGoa&ved=2ahUKEwjS1dOOy9CVAxWGU0EAHYjDOKgQ1fkOegoIAggACAAIChAX&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw1l3jRlXyp3k11ieNiPmvrb&ust=1784064179637000

I'm not convinced religion is the main reason why they're safer than Delhi. Kerala has better education for one. Leo Hickman's book about tourism, The Final Call, had an interesting chapter on why Kerala is more developed.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Final-Call-Investigating-Really-Holidays/dp/1905811063

You mean they were immigrants/not born in France?

Or not integrated?

The people that tried to mug were parents were black, just factually speaking.

An Indian colleague I had said at Gare du Nord they target Indians because they know they often wear real gold.

Presumably she means a man who immigrated to France from a country with significantly worse problems with misogyny and cultural attitudes towards women. Which obviously you actually already knew. But you feel it's important to police women's concerns about their safety, because you're another "feminist" who prioritises the feelings and wants of men over the safety of women

The thing about Japan is that it's historically had lax attitude to sexuality at least in certain contexts (and for male benefit) and in many instances this had been bad for women. The Tokyo sex districts have all kinds of unhealthy stuff, unhealthy sexual attitudes are also encouraged by hentai etc (lots of anime & manga have positive female roles, but lots is also misogynistic or even paedophilic, eg lolicon).
In the 1990s, vending machines selling used female underwear, & hostess cafes with teens were 2 things allowed in red light districts though this has since been cracked down on.
Officially it has a low sexual assault rate but reporting is socially discouraged often. Sexual assault on trains, sometimes filmed & monetised online, (chikan) has been acknowledged as a problem, the BBC did an excellent undercover investigation

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct4m73

Sexist men deliberately bumping women on public transport is a problem too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butsukariotoko

I'm really sorry your parents had that experience.

When you say 'French', I'm assuming that you're not saying someone has to be white to be French, you mean they hadn't accepted French culture & values?

I think pp thought you meant the former but I didn't think that's what your post meant.

How do you know people immigrated to France by looking at them?

(And this was about mugging not sexual harassment so what is the relevance of attitudes towards women?)

I like your attempt to to wordsmith her but I am pretty sure that’s not what that PP meant….

Oh so I was right. It was just racism on your part.

You know that being French and being black are not mutually exclusive right? No “..” necessary.

You do know that there is nothing exclusive of unique to any “culture” about mugging. That somebody mugging somebody is no indication of them rejecting French culture / values? It’s simply crime.

Jesus wept, the racism on this site…

Anyway she clarified - she was just being racist and you should read posts properly before responding to them.

Why are you minimising what happened to you?

You loved the experience, but had to put up with sexual assault?

Fuck India. I wouldn't go there if you paid me.

I'm more interested in the actual subject of the thread tbh. You may be interested in different things.

I wouldn’t and it would probably make things worse. Narinder Modi is a right wing nutcase who openly promotes hatred against the Indian Muslim population. Think Trump, Farage or Lowe style politics. You might find yourself being targeted more.

Modi does nothing against violence and assaults against women. For a country, largely Hindu that worships strong female Goddesses they don’t hold much regard or respect for the ordinary mortal woman.

If a white person moved to india, settled there and even gave up their western citizenship to be an Indian citizen, would that make them as Indian as someone whose ancestors fought for independence?

That's naive.

Mexico as described by pp, several other South American countries, Democratic Republic of Congo, Lesotho and Ethiopia are all Christian countries and they're hardly safe for women.

Religion can be one variable but others matter too. Christianity can help women, but not always.

I'm also not convinced that Hinduism is the major factor behind sexual harassment & rape in India.