To think this is the most awful thing to say to a parent

[Kate8889]

My mom has a husband she's been with for about 12 years, they're in their 60s.

He has a sister and their father recently died after a very difficult few years of Alzheimer's disease (he was physically combative on the daily).

This sister (in front of everyone) told her mom that if a person gets a diagnosis such as Alzheimer's it is the person's responsibility that they don't become a burden on their loved ones and they should end their life. I cannot imagine saying that to anyone but especially my parents.

I often wished my DM could be like one old lady at her care home, who happily told me virtually every time I visited, that her mum and dad and gran and granddad were coming soon, and they were all going to the seaside together.

Alas there was no sunlit childhood idyll for my poor mother, who was so often worried, fretful, or frightened of things she couldn’t even name.
‘I’m frightened!
‘Oh, dear - what are you frightened of?’
’I don’t know…’ 😰

Or like the other poor old late 80s lady, who was so often in tears because she needed to get home for ‘the baby’, or because her mother wouldn’t know where she was, and would be so worried. The staff were always very kind, and did their best to reassure her, but nothing worked for long.

Please be fair. A lot of us are not flat out opposing it, but we are entitled to our concern for the possible ramifications.

I didn’t mean you. I mean the small number of members of the House of Lords who have taken it off the table for everyone, despite MPs voting for it. It’s a travesty of democracy.

Because if you are at that stage of the disease you can't travel, eat or be deemed to have capacity. A private clinic may do if you pay in advance and they have doctors who will travel to you and actually administer. I would 100% bet it would be so expensive that no-one, certainly HD positive would be able to afford it. No doubt any private provider would also put the cost up at point of delivery, leaving family members....who may have HD themselves, unable to pay, ensuring more guilt of not being able to help their loved one's.

Where does that end?

If you’re out with a bloke and tell him you want to have sex tonight and then you get drunk should he have the right to have sex with you regardless because you consented when you had the capacity to do so?

I think they would call that rape.

By the same token, if you’re no longer able to consent to being killed and they hold you down and do it anyway, I think you’ll find that’s murder.

Really? Tell that to the woman in the care home my MIL ended up in.

Sitting in a chair for hours on end in the day room with a carer holding her hand and whimpering "help me help me". It was heart breaking to listen to. No one could break through to find out what her mind was torturing her with.

That’s not a valid comparison. A will and an advance directive are both legal written documents which specify the person signing them is of sound mind.

Assisted suicide is a voluntary act which requires the person involved to pick up and consume two lethal drinks. It would certainly be murder if any other method was involved.

I doubt it would be legal to administer those two drinks for them to pick up and consume if they are not of sound mind and able to give informed consent at the time. Even an advance directive as part of an LPA allows for consent to be fluid and demands that the attorney act in the best interests of the donor, and involve them as much as possible in any decision being taken on their behalf.

Absolutely this. My mum spent a couple of weeks on a geriatric ward after a fall and there was one particular woman who used to approach everyone who came onto the ward and ask them to please help her as she couldn’t find her way home. Pain isn’t always physical.

A bit harsh sounding, but it's new territory to navigate, this extension of life by medical and societal advances, that isn't really living.

If someone has made it clear assisted suicide was their choice in the event of dementia when of sound mind, it would be difficult to make a case for it not to be in their best interests.

When they’re actively sitting there telling you they don’t want it - don’t be daft !!

That’s highly unlikely, isn’t it? Anyway it’s not legal in this country so it’s a moot point. As things stand I’m going to have to off myself while I still have capacity if I get a dementia diagnosis.

Thanks for clarifying, I wasn't sure if you were referring to posters on the thread.

But you can't always tell just from outward appearances whether someone 'isn't really living', which is why some people need protection from others trying to make the decision for them.

But presumably the point of the drinks is that they require consent in the moment, as they can't just be poured down someone's throat? I was actually thinking that sounded like a useful detail as far as preventing coercion is concerned.

So you say “absolutely” about having it forced on you then immediately say you’d have to administer it yourself. You get that you’d probably refuse, right? Someone says “Deirdre, these 2 drinks will kill you so drink up” and you refuse and they say “but 10 years ago you said this is what you wanted” and you say “I don’t now” or “no I didn’t” or “why are you trying to kill me?”. Then what?

Every disability charity is against it. Is that not worth listening to?

Absolutely agree, it's a slippery slope. How could you ever prove others it's what the person with dementia definitely wanted to do, given that they were not of sound mind to give informed consent any more?

Plus, of course, if their spouse or carer was in the throes of looking after them but they were finding it tough, it might be a good chance for them to convince the dementia patient's decision - as you say, they might be chivvying them along in a very alarming way...!😳😱😕

It’s really not highly unlikely. You say ok we’re ending your life now and you bet a huge number of dementia patients will fight tooth and nail. Many do so even to take simple medications like an aspirin.

Absolutely, my DM was in acute psychological distress most of the time even when her dementia was very advanced. Some people are unaware of their condition and/or quite happy but many are not, and the myth that they are all "happily confused" is really damaging.

Re discussion about assisted suicide of those with dementia - it would have to be while the individual still has capacity that their wish to die is actioned. The difference with today's situation is that they would be able to die under medical supervision rather than for example attempting a method which might not work (eg pills which my DM did the first time but didn't take enough) or cause unnecessary trauma to bystanders (suicide by jumping etc).

Yes it’s an awful thing to say to someone else because you could not nor should not tell someone to end their life but I have said that about myself. There’s no way on earth I would want to inflict that on my children and I can only hope I’m diagnosed with dementia early enough that I still have the cognitive ability to plan my end. I’ve told my husband and children I’ll be going to Switzerland. I can only hope I’ll be able to go through with it when the time comes

Agree. Someone in the situation of Stephen Hawking for instance.

I started this thread agreeing with AD but I am gradually becoming more opposed to it thanks to the supporters on here. I have witnessed my mother dying with Alzheimers and would definitely rather die than go through it myself but it's not as simple as a lot of pp on here seem to think.

The difference is Stephen Haeking retained his capacity....a lot of people with neurological diseases don't. They often chose to end their life before they lose capacity as they know their wishes won't be followed once they deemed not to have capacity. Hands up, as someone is very personally affected by this, i think we need to give people their dignity.

Then those who fight tooth and nail wouldn’t take the drinks, would they? Why are you so opposed to someone who wishes to die having the autonomy to do so at the time of their choosing? Ideally if I receive a diagnosis of dementia I’d like to go while I’m still able to consent because I know what I’m doing. Why are you hellbent on denying me that?