To think this information is missing from the news about white working class children in schools?

[Machinemasoluem]

That the definition of working class is FSM eligibility..

FSM is not a good definition of working class. At all.
The eligibility is earning less than 7.4k a year so barely anyone and its hardly working and will include children busy caring for disabled parents who don’t have time for homework, children who’s parents have alcohol or even drug problems. Etc

Absolutely no judgement from me my child gets FSM (I was only 16 when I had him and he was eligible when he started school but once you get them it lasts until the end of primary school) but it seems obvious that children from homes with issues that prevent them earning more than 7.4k will more likely struggle at school.

In September every child whose parents receive universal credit will be eligible for FSM so millions more children and from more ordinary working families. Even some middle class families receive universal credit so FSM still won’t be a good definition of working class.

I think the statistics around this will definitely be watered down when this happens. In the meantime why is it acceptable for people to act like white people are terrible parents unless they have the money for a tutor and all non white parents are superior at instilling discipline, respect and the importance of hard work? There are areas in London with obvious issues and it would be considered really racist to blame parenting.

I always thought both were middle class I just googled it to check and it says they are middle class

Not when it isn't a life stage as it used to be, but a long term lifestyle.

You can Google if they’re working class and another definition will say yes to that too. Few people would actually associate a social worker making £30k a year with being middle class.

My child was completely capable of the harder sums. Okay this only started in KS2, but he did them and was perfectly capable. I totally understand why this happens so young, I did the same, the 11+ is tough and no way in hell did I want my DC at the local comprehensive. My DC all had hobbies with some being musical and playing instruments. You can push academically and have an understanding of the real world!

In the long run don't you want your children in well paid employment?

It’s balk at the suggestion not bulk. And why would she balk at the suggestion that she’s working class as a tradesman’s wife just because she had a nice accent? That’s classism at its core… she looks down on the very people she lives among.

Anyway I suppose this discussion has shown that class is subjective. But I doubt there are lots of middle class yummy mummies getting FSMs for little Teddy while owning their own home and car.

FSMs are for children who’s parents cannot afford to maintain their child’s needs / nutrition due to a lack of funds for whatever reason. This indicates people who are in poverty or close to poverty. Not all regular working class children many of whom are not struggling at all and whose parents are pushing them to achieve academically.

@Lifeonvenus100your kid might be: but not everyone is - YET. Pushing your kid to be capable of the harder work often has the effect of pushing the class teacher (particularly in the independent sector, with parent as consumer) to give more and harder work well above the right level for the age group, of which not everyone’s capable.

If you want your kid to do the harder sums, pay for a tutor to push them outside the classroom environment (I mean, sounds like you may already have done that). Our experience is that parents’ pushiness is affecting the entire classroom dynamic and short sightedly treating education as a really quite narrow sprint rather than a lifelong endeavour.

Wanting my kid in well-paid employment? It’s not my most important criteria, no (and I say that as a high earning professional myself). The most important thing is he’s happy and doing something which plays to his skillset and (if possible) he really enjoys. All the while understanding the potential sacrifices not having a huge income might involve (who knows, he may become a very high paid actor).

The local comprehensive isn’t a concern for us: we intend our son to receive as rounded an education as possible in the independent sector for his entire school career.

I googled what class are they rather than are they middle class and it says this:

“Social workers and teachers are both traditionally grouped into the middle class. This is because they are white-collar, salaried professionals who typically require university degrees and specialised training to do their jobs“

which checks out with what I always thought

Lack of attention to detail!

We cannot dismiss classicism in a debate on class.

I think your definition of class is actually classist in itself. You appear to equate working class with having little money. Class in the UK has never been defined solely by wealth.

A tradesman’s wife is no less middle class because she marries a plumber ( she looks down on no one, my point is she is middle class irrespective of who she marries because she was born into a long established middle class family), and a middle class family doesn’t stop being middle class because they experience financial hardship.

Reducing class to income or savings ignores the cultural and social dimensions of class. That is my point.

There aren’t at the moment no because eligibility is earning less than £7.4k. Come September everyone claiming any amount of UC will be eligible though.

I never said being working class means little money. I said being middle class requires money. They are not the same thing. One doesn’t exclude the other as I never said it’s only money that makes one middle class.

There are social AND financial expectations of class is my point. An upper class person can be poor and remain upper class (as titles/land that can’t always be sold etc define this group) and a working class person can be rich and sometimes remain working class (this one would depend on profession, purchase of property etc). Middle class is different imo because it is nebulous, they are working class with bells on it. Thats all. They will never be upper class, but take away their money and make them move area or start a low paid job due to necessity and what separates them from their working class neighbours? The fact they have an accent and went to the ballet as a child?

Yes in some cases it does. I think a lot of upper and middle class people know others that sit in the class - middle/upper middle or upper - they do just by merit of birth and it is tolerated.

And yet even those cultural experiences don’t define middle class any more. Plenty of working class kids see ballet/opera/theatre/museums now due to school and clubs and girl guides and scouts etc etc. working class kids in parts of Surrey etc can sound just as posh as the kids of the super rich in London. You wouldn’t know they grew up working class from their voice? Almost half of millenials have at least one degree so it’s not education?

What really sets middle class people APART from the working class? Money.

Yes, definitions and categories are spurious. I did see a definition of middle class as anyone that went to university.

I agree to some extent that money is what affords a middle class lifestyle.

I didn’t go to university, I have worked in hospitality and the NHS. I was a single parent. I now have my own business, I am married and I have the middle class lifestyle and money. But I personally do not define myself by class because of, I suppose, that fluidity.

OP is determined to make this about something that it’s not. I feel that some true colours are peeping through.

You have the wrong meaning for elope.
From the Cambridge dictionary:

elope
verb [ I ]
UK

/iˈləʊp/ US

/iˈloʊp/
Add to word list
to leave home secretly in order to get married without the permission of yourparents:
elope with She eloped with an Armyofficer.

This confused me, I was googling to see what the relation was between eloping and being on FSM!

Just to give another angle. I work as a consultant psychiatrist in a large city. Over the last few years we have had so many students referred for assessments. Many of the children from minority ethnic backgrounds feel under immense pressure from family. Especially the international students whose parents are paying a small fortune for them to live and study here. They feel that they cannot drop out or resit, because of the impact on their family both financially, and also the shame it might bring. It is quite horrible to see how trapped they feel.

Whilst I agree that immigrants largely have a good work ethic and instil that in their children, (my family was the same) the pressure can be intense.

I was the child of immigrants and we were told we needed to become doctors or lawyers. If we did ‘badly’ we could consider dentistry or pharmacy, or even ‘worse’, teaching. And that was basically it. I let my academic and bright children choose what they wanted to do and they did not choose professional degrees. They will no doubt do well in life, but it will be on their terms. I give them encouragement and opportunities, but I absolutely do not give them pressure to succeed at all costs. The ‘western’ way has some pros; intense pressure is not always good for mental health.

Factually wrong. The threshold for Targeted FSM is remaining unchanged. Expanded FSM is in respect of the additional families receiving Universal Credit et al who will only be eligible for FSM funding, not Pupil Premium.

How many times are you going to repeat the same inaccurate statement? There are two types of FSM as of 1st September. One is unchanged - which will be the one used for comparisons.

Sociologists stratify class through several core frameworks:

• Marxist Theory: A binary system based on ownership. The Bourgeoisie own the means of production, while the Proletariat sell their labour.
• Weberian Theory: A multidimensional model looking at Class (economic market position), Status (social prestige), and Party (political power).
• Functionalism: The Davis-Moore thesis argues stratification is necessary. Higher economic and social rewards motivate top talent to fill critical, demanding roles.
• Bourdieu’s Capital Model: Class is defined by three intersecting resources: Economic (money/assets), Cultural (education/tastes), and Social (networks/connections).
• Contemporary Models: The Great British Class Survey applies Bourdieu's forms of capital to identify seven modern classes, ranging from the elite to the highly insecure "precariat."
• Occupational Scales: Systems like the NS-SEC categorise individuals based on employment relations, career security, job autonomy, and skill requirements.

Together, these approaches demonstrate that modern stratification is a complex mix of financial wealth, social influence, and cultural lifestyle.

Source: AI summary

That is a stretch to far!

Income 7.4k = FSM = WWC = Under preforming at school = to mention misdemeanours of darker skinned DC would be racist = upset feelings of people that only read headlines = MC DC having FSM because DFs have eloped, with the au pair I suppose.

We got there!

Ha. Thanks for working it out as I was getting all confused 😏

Careful you don’t end up in that facebook group for people attempting to correct people whilst being wrong themselves!

Beyond weddings, "elope" can also have a few other specific meanings:
Leaving with a paramour: Traditionally, it meant a married or engaged person running away from home to be with a new romantic partner.
Wandering or straying: In psychology and caregiving (such as when referring to children with autism or individuals with dementia), "eloping" describes the behavior of someone wandering away from a safe environment or a caregiver.
Absconding: Generally, it means to escape or secretly leave a place without permission, such as fleeing from custody

In common English it has the meaning of a secret wedding. People don’t use it in those more obscure ways.