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To think this information is missing from the news about white working class children in schools?

246 replies

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 19:42

That the definition of working class is FSM eligibility..

FSM is not a good definition of working class. At all.
The eligibility is earning less than 7.4k a year so barely anyone and its hardly working and will include children busy caring for disabled parents who don’t have time for homework, children who’s parents have alcohol or even drug problems. Etc

Absolutely no judgement from me my child gets FSM (I was only 16 when I had him and he was eligible when he started school but once you get them it lasts until the end of primary school) but it seems obvious that children from homes with issues that prevent them earning more than 7.4k will more likely struggle at school.

In September every child whose parents receive universal credit will be eligible for FSM so millions more children and from more ordinary working families. Even some middle class families receive universal credit so FSM still won’t be a good definition of working class.

I think the statistics around this will definitely be watered down when this happens. In the meantime why is it acceptable for people to act like white people are terrible parents unless they have the money for a tutor and all non white parents are superior at instilling discipline, respect and the importance of hard work? There are areas in London with obvious issues and it would be considered really racist to blame parenting.

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Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 22:02

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 21:58

Being over represented in the prison system and gang/knife crime is blamed on racism and white privilege. White kids getting bad grades is blamed on white parents and you have columnists typing up essays about how they’re all too busy spending benefits on nails while every single non white parent is apparently sat at home drilling times tables.

Structural racism is definitely a large factor on why certain ethnicities have high levels of knife crime, or why Irish Travellers (who are white) are massively overrepresented in the prison system. Structural racism affects outcomes from birth and carries on until death. White privilege is a thing, it doesn't mean that certain sections of white people are not marginalized. You seem to be very focused on the "it's racist against white people..." element here as opposed to actually looking at the reasons, rather than just regurgitating headlines.

Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 22:06

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 22:00

No I’m not saying they do. I’m saying it’s been in the news that white working class kids getting bad grades bad grades which makes you think of builders and plumbers etc. Loads of people basically.

When it’s actually just talking about FSM kids which a plumber and builder would earn too much to be eligible for.

I think a lot of people see FSM as unemployed parents on benefits, certainly not builders and plumbers Hmm. And so what if they do? Why is that annoying you? The point of concern surely is to focus on how we can improve outcomes, not fret over people thinking their parents are in the wrong socioeconomic group.

Lifeonvenus100 · 01/07/2026 22:13

What's so structurally racist about the UK? Have you seen who gets the better educational outcomes?

The Indians and the Chinese, we do well in the labour force and in careers earnings and wealth.

Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 22:19

Lifeonvenus100 · 01/07/2026 22:13

What's so structurally racist about the UK? Have you seen who gets the better educational outcomes?

The Indians and the Chinese, we do well in the labour force and in careers earnings and wealth.

Have you seen the research about Black women being 5 times more likely to die postnatally? Or that Travellers have life expectancies up to 10 less than general population? Or someone being called Mohammed is 30 times less likely to be offered the same job as an applicant called Adam? It has been published that there is structural racism within the NHS and Metropolitan Police and I'm sure countless other places. And not all minority ethnics are in the same 'basket', generally speaking a Chinese person will face less barriers than a Black one.

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 22:19

Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 22:06

I think a lot of people see FSM as unemployed parents on benefits, certainly not builders and plumbers Hmm. And so what if they do? Why is that annoying you? The point of concern surely is to focus on how we can improve outcomes, not fret over people thinking their parents are in the wrong socioeconomic group.

I don’t think you understand.

Theres been a lot in the news about “white working class children” which makes one think of a very large percentage of the population including plumbers and builders kids.

But what they don’t say in the headlines is they use fsm eligibility as the definition of working class. Which is earning less than 7.4k a year. That will obviously include a lot of families with issues stopping them earning more. Which again I’m not judging (my own kid gets fsm, I was only 16 when I had him and he was eligible when he started school but once you get them it lasts until the end of primary school) but it’s true.

Please tell me how misleading the general public into thinking the white children of plumbers and builders are doing terrible at school and paying columnists to spout their opinions about terrible white parenting helps improve outcomes?

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Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 22:20

Lifeonvenus100 · 01/07/2026 22:13

What's so structurally racist about the UK? Have you seen who gets the better educational outcomes?

The Indians and the Chinese, we do well in the labour force and in careers earnings and wealth.

And these minorities are not "given" the better outcomes, they have achieved it against the adverse conditions they often have had to face.

Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 22:24

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 22:19

I don’t think you understand.

Theres been a lot in the news about “white working class children” which makes one think of a very large percentage of the population including plumbers and builders kids.

But what they don’t say in the headlines is they use fsm eligibility as the definition of working class. Which is earning less than 7.4k a year. That will obviously include a lot of families with issues stopping them earning more. Which again I’m not judging (my own kid gets fsm, I was only 16 when I had him and he was eligible when he started school but once you get them it lasts until the end of primary school) but it’s true.

Please tell me how misleading the general public into thinking the white children of plumbers and builders are doing terrible at school and paying columnists to spout their opinions about terrible white parenting helps improve outcomes?

I do get it, I think you are missing the point. FSM has always been the indice of childhood poverty and deprivation. I'm not sure why you think people would assume this is mostly going to be builders and plumbers (and why is that even important?). Is your husband a builder and plumber and you are worried "everyone" thinks your dc are getting FSM?

Bunnyofhope · 01/07/2026 22:27

Working class was a really bad descriptor to use.
Not that the media are much sold on accuracy. Poor, the term needed is poor and not just poor but the poorest amongst us. The poorest white children.

Thechaseison71 · 01/07/2026 22:30

Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 21:35

What's the relevance to white children here?

The report that was written said about " white working class kids" not doing so well. Then proceeded to say it's only kids getting FSM they studied, not working class kids in general

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 22:30

Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 22:24

I do get it, I think you are missing the point. FSM has always been the indice of childhood poverty and deprivation. I'm not sure why you think people would assume this is mostly going to be builders and plumbers (and why is that even important?). Is your husband a builder and plumber and you are worried "everyone" thinks your dc are getting FSM?

No offence I don’t think your reading comprehension is great.
Ive already said my son gets FSM (I had him at 16 and he was eligible when he started reception so will stay eligible until he leaves primary school even though I earn more) not ashamed of it, dont care who knows about it.

There have been headlines about “white working class children” doing badly at school. When most people hear working class they think of a builder or a train driver or something similar. They don’t realise it’s actually talking just about FSM kids.

So its very misleading.

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Thechaseison71 · 01/07/2026 22:31

Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 22:24

I do get it, I think you are missing the point. FSM has always been the indice of childhood poverty and deprivation. I'm not sure why you think people would assume this is mostly going to be builders and plumbers (and why is that even important?). Is your husband a builder and plumber and you are worried "everyone" thinks your dc are getting FSM?

But not all working class kids are in poverty and it's Insulting to insinuate that

EnidSpyton · 01/07/2026 22:37

If you read beyond the headlines or go to the website where you can read the full report and the datasets behind it, the report authors acknowledge that 'white working class' is a problematic term when it comes to defining a strata of society for statistical purposes, as is using FSM as an indicator of someone's class.

However, for the purposes of the report, in order to be able to create a dataset with clear parameters, they had to use FSM as a marker of disadvantage to align with the attainment data available from schools (as they track the achievement of students who receive FSM). They did also carry out more broad qualitative research that allowed them to gather views from people who did not receive FSM but who considered themselves white working class, though.

You can read all about the report data here: https://educationaloutcomes.org.uk/about/terms/

The report says nothing about white people being terrible parents, and neither does any news article I've read.

What the report does reveal are deep cultural reasons behind the lower educational attainment of white children living in situations of socio-economic disadvantage compared to their peers of different racial backgrounds.

This is a reality we need to be able to confront and discuss.

There is a culture of anti-intellectualism amidst benefit-dependent white British families, and a poverty of aspiration. Education is not seen as important. Children are not encouraged or supported to attend school regularly. Often homes are chaotic with minimal boundaries and parents are not supportive of sanctions for behaviour that are meted out by schools. When you have multigenerational families who are benefit dependent, this compounds the lack of support and aspiration for children. You can't be what you can't see. If no one you know has ever worked or gone to university, you don't see that as a possibility for you or for your child. It is very hard for individuals to break out of this pattern.

If you look at the report website, it's interesting that the research has all been done in either rural or former industrial communities, where multigenerational issues with lack of local work opportunities are endemic and lead to very little engagement with formal education. I think the results would look very different if our major cities were included.

As a teacher for many years, I've seen all this first hand. We all know the reasons behind the statistics - and the answer isn't to chuck more money at schools to fix it. You have to work with the community, to fix the culture, and what's going to fix the culture are opportunities for meaningful work in a variety of disciplines that are spread across the country rather than concentrated in cities. So many former industrial communities have had nothing invested in them since the mines or factories that supported them closed down a generation ago, and you've got children in these areas growing up in families where three or more generations have never worked. It's very hard to instil a good work ethic and love of learning in your children when you've never had it instilled in you, and when you think doing so will just give them false hope of a life you don't believe they'll ever be able to have.

About the Research – The Inquiry into White Working Class Educational Outcomes

https://educationaloutcomes.org.uk/about/terms/

Livpool · 01/07/2026 22:40

I personally hate the view that working class = not interested in education. I grew up in a working class family, my lovely dad started his life in the slums of Liverpool. He absolutely believed in education, and was incredibly intelligent.

Thechaseison71 · 01/07/2026 22:40

@EnidSpyton so put " disadvantaged white kids in the title might've been more truthful

And where's the " working class" in families that have never worked that you speak about

WobblyLondoner · 01/07/2026 22:42

Personally I think the report is really helpful. There has been a lot of concern, understandably, about the low education attainment of some ethic minority groups. But one of the lowest attaining of all are white working class boys. It’s right that this is something being talked about - though I don’t think there is any kind of easy fix to what has been a long-standing issue.

The best data to use to look at this is from schools themselves. They don’t collect a measure of parents’ education or occupation - so it’s impossible to come up with a measure of class based on that. All they do have is whether or not the child receives FSM. I agree reports on the story should have made this clearer - I strongly suspect the researchers who did the original work were very up front about this element of their work.

EnidSpyton · 01/07/2026 22:43

I might also add that 'most people' know that white working class doesn't equal free school meals.

The traditional meaning of working class in and of itself implies that you are working in a trade of some sort. Many of us 'middle class' people working in professional roles are out-earned by 'working class' people these days.

I do think we need to be using different terminology when doing social research in the 21st century - many of these old socio-economic categories are no longer fit for purpose in a societal landscape that bears no relation to that of when these terms were created.

EnidSpyton · 01/07/2026 22:45

Thechaseison71 · 01/07/2026 22:40

@EnidSpyton so put " disadvantaged white kids in the title might've been more truthful

And where's the " working class" in families that have never worked that you speak about

Edited

I quite agree- and I don't think the term working class is helpful at all. It certainly isn't when it comes to this report because it's not about working class people in the traditional sense. It's about benefit-dependent families. That's a very different conversation.

OrangeCinnamon · 01/07/2026 22:46

There are different perceptions of class. From a sociocultural perspective yes, it is possible train driver = working class. These reports use fsm as a proxy measure of socioeconomic class status.
The issues are complex and cultural its not as simple as you are presenting.

At the end of the day, we are letting lots of sections of society down. How about we hold those in power accountable, rather than causing more division ?

WoollyandSarah · 01/07/2026 22:47

The thing that confuses me is how 25% of children qualify for FSM if the threshold has been £7.4k income per year. I appreciate that there is an element of "once you qualify, you keep getting it". But even then, are there really that many families that have that low income?

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 22:56

WoollyandSarah · 01/07/2026 22:47

The thing that confuses me is how 25% of children qualify for FSM if the threshold has been £7.4k income per year. I appreciate that there is an element of "once you qualify, you keep getting it". But even then, are there really that many families that have that low income?

I do admit it surprises me too, it’s 50% in some schools and those aren’t even in bad areas.

I will hold my hands up and admit after having my son so young I did just bum around for a few years and as you say once you get it it stays till they leave primary school.

But most parents surely earn more than 7k when their child starts school? It is surprising that the percentage is so high. Perhaps someone knows more ?

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Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 23:01

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 22:30

No offence I don’t think your reading comprehension is great.
Ive already said my son gets FSM (I had him at 16 and he was eligible when he started reception so will stay eligible until he leaves primary school even though I earn more) not ashamed of it, dont care who knows about it.

There have been headlines about “white working class children” doing badly at school. When most people hear working class they think of a builder or a train driver or something similar. They don’t realise it’s actually talking just about FSM kids.

So its very misleading.

I'm thinking you are just trolling now. Please read the other posts (and especially the report) and hopefully you can put your fears to bed.

MeetMeOnTheCorner · 01/07/2026 23:04

@OrangeCinnamon A train driver is absolutely not working class and has not ever been classed as that. Skilled and very responsible employee so definititely and not working class in my view.

The income limit is over £16,000. The £7,400 relates to 2018 earnings and universal credit at that time. All the benefits make it not worth some people bothering to work more hours and people who don’t earn well, might as well not bother because there’s certainly a poverty trap.

It’s a combination of many things that don’t help white boys in poorer areas. Upbringing, family attitudes, no understanding of how you get a better job, not wanting to leave poor area (they like what they know), no ambition and thinking everyone is against you. So staying in your allocated class makes sense.

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 23:15

Zippedydoobaah · 01/07/2026 23:01

I'm thinking you are just trolling now. Please read the other posts (and especially the report) and hopefully you can put your fears to bed.

I’m not trolling. I said I don’t think your reading comprehension is great because why were you asking me if my husband was a plumber and I was worried everyone would think my child got free school meals?
When I already said three times my child does get free school meals and I really don’t care what anyone thinks.

And this is about peoples reactions to headlines saying “white working class” why say working class when you only mean people earning less than 7.4k?
Loads of people only read headlines and most of the population are working class so they’ll just think it basically applies to most white people. Now we have columnists typing up their opinions on how white families apparently don’t value education or discipline.

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AllyMacbealmyarse · 01/07/2026 23:19

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 22:30

No offence I don’t think your reading comprehension is great.
Ive already said my son gets FSM (I had him at 16 and he was eligible when he started reception so will stay eligible until he leaves primary school even though I earn more) not ashamed of it, dont care who knows about it.

There have been headlines about “white working class children” doing badly at school. When most people hear working class they think of a builder or a train driver or something similar. They don’t realise it’s actually talking just about FSM kids.

So its very misleading.

Not sure you are in a position to be throwing stones about reading comprehension.

You seem to be unhappy because you’ve decided (I haven’t seen a source cited, but not rtft) that headlines talking about working class white kids having poor outcomes at school relies on free school meals being the definition of working class. You’ve then gone off on a racist rant (or at least racist adjacent) about white people being criticised as being bad parents, but there is no clear line showing your evidence for any of those statements nor is it clear how you are getting from point A to point B. So not really sure what your point is, other than being a bit racist.

Machinemasoluem · 01/07/2026 23:26

AllyMacbealmyarse · 01/07/2026 23:19

Not sure you are in a position to be throwing stones about reading comprehension.

You seem to be unhappy because you’ve decided (I haven’t seen a source cited, but not rtft) that headlines talking about working class white kids having poor outcomes at school relies on free school meals being the definition of working class. You’ve then gone off on a racist rant (or at least racist adjacent) about white people being criticised as being bad parents, but there is no clear line showing your evidence for any of those statements nor is it clear how you are getting from point A to point B. So not really sure what your point is, other than being a bit racist.

Anyone that’s been following the news and discussions around white working class children (because I also remember it being in the news last year too) will have seen and heard these viewpoints.

Is there really a need to wade into a discussion on something you haven’t been paying much attention to and start accusing people of racism?

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