To think this information is missing from the news about white working class children in schools?

[Machinemasoluem]

That the definition of working class is FSM eligibility..

FSM is not a good definition of working class. At all.
The eligibility is earning less than 7.4k a year so barely anyone and its hardly working and will include children busy caring for disabled parents who don’t have time for homework, children who’s parents have alcohol or even drug problems. Etc

Absolutely no judgement from me my child gets FSM (I was only 16 when I had him and he was eligible when he started school but once you get them it lasts until the end of primary school) but it seems obvious that children from homes with issues that prevent them earning more than 7.4k will more likely struggle at school.

In September every child whose parents receive universal credit will be eligible for FSM so millions more children and from more ordinary working families. Even some middle class families receive universal credit so FSM still won’t be a good definition of working class.

I think the statistics around this will definitely be watered down when this happens. In the meantime why is it acceptable for people to act like white people are terrible parents unless they have the money for a tutor and all non white parents are superior at instilling discipline, respect and the importance of hard work? There are areas in London with obvious issues and it would be considered really racist to blame parenting.

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whyd you think it’s unreasonable?

What? None of that makes any sense.
I was earning more than that when my last one to leave education qualified for fsm 2 years ago at 6th form.
Even when I wasn't earning anything, that still didn't make me any way less educated or capable of bringing up my children. My income was in direct correlation to my disability, my son's autism, and how much of a dickhead their father was being at that point in time.

Presumably that whatever you call it, the white kids in this demographic are ending up with worse results than non-white?

The issues are really complex and not easily summed up in a short news report so they use fsm as shorthand when it is actually multi generational disengagement with the education system that’s at its root - some will be on free school meals but at its heart are parents and grandparents who didn’t complete education.

my dd1’s school has a real problem due to parents simply not sending their kids beyond 14 because what was the point … a tie up with a local vocational college helped a bit by helping them onto practical courses but ultimately parents didn’t value education so neither did their dc - attendance was below 70% on average. Dd2’s school was 2 miles further across the borough and attendance was over 95.% different demographics

Less than £7.4k is the threshold currently though. You can look this up.

Like I said though I’m not judging anyone whose kids get FSMs because my son does. But people earning less than 7.4k are a small percentage of the population and will include child carers (for disabled parents so less time to study) and children who’s parents might have alcohol or even drug problems. So statistically it makes sense

What's the relevance to white children here?

It's over a quarter of school children, which I wouldn't describe as tiny.

I ve read a lot of the comments on fb about this.
i agree fsm is a crazy thing to use to determine white working class kids vs everyone else. As largely to earn so little people ar e barely working at all. So possibly have lower education themself.
It maybe
the y dont prioritise school or homework, or are hectic or move house or selarate from partners. There maybe more kids in the f amily or taking several term tim e holidays a year or have high rates of sen or dyslexia or asd or adhd.

Our schools specificak my dc school almost 100% relies on parents doing the leg work for reading. Maybe read with a TA every few weeks in receotion and 6 times a year to teacher. Maths is more taught at school but again some ethnicities are tutoring or home tutoring but less likely to do that if you yourself bareley passed gcse maths or didnt pass.

i think you get better results where the school is competitIve and motivated. Our primary really wasnt until y6 so only for sats.

The secondary is pretty poor. Never mark homework. The homework is random and mainly revision. The kids dont get the gcses they asked for. The behaviour is awful.

many parents arent going to senc their dc out of area to a better school and lose friends (WC parents seem obsessed with not upsetting kids re friendships).

some parents and schools are happy with kids getting a 4. Beca hse schools are only targetted to pass or improve on SATs results.

Schools are not all equal. If you are nlt kn a great area but cant afford to move or cant pay for bus fayre or drive you are left with the leftovers.

I went to a private school and the difference isnt necessarily the teaching, its the very low effort from teachers as they dont know the kids well in large schools. And constant behaviour issues.
High sen rates and behaviour issue will impact rural areas more as fewer sen schools

Often the term working classes is used when what is meant is underclass. Generational poverty and neglect and disengagement from education and wider society. Usually associated with ongoign criminality.

I mean if you can't afford a tutor that's unfortunate. I never needed one for maths and just taught my own children maths.

There are many cultures (British Indian and British Chinese) for example that emphasise the value of education and hard work. That might be seen as a bit "pushy" and "cruel". But you see the end results, GCSE and A-level grades higher than the average white British. High proportion going into well paid skilled careers. And also a significantly lower rates of illicit drug use.

Because it’s been in the news that white children aren’t doing well at school using “working class” which makes you think of builders and cleaners a much larger percentage of the population than people earning less than 7.4k.

Everyone rushing to say whites aren’t raising their kids properly and don’t value education or discipline but it would be racist to say that about the parents of non white children who do badly at school and fall into crime in London.

In the meantime why is it acceptable for people to act like white people are terrible parents unless they have the money for a tutor and all non white parents are superior at instilling discipline, respect and the importance of hard work?

I've personally never heard anyone say white parents are terrible unless they have money for a tutor, so don't know where you are where this is common and acceptable. However, I started in a role several years ago working on a project with women and children, where I know them very well and have first hand knowledge of how they live and their financial situation. All of the women are from very similar socioeconomic levels. They are all on benefits, do not have permanent housing and their children are all on FSM. About 25% of the women on the project are first generation immigrants, mostly from African countries. There is a very marked difference in their lifestyle with regards to food, daily living, money management and attitudes towards education. I can now see why immigrant children despite very unfavourable circumstances do better than their white counterparts.

I agree. The headline should have said ‘children on free school meals who come from households earning less than £7400 have poor outcomes’.

Parents of kids who go into gangs and carry knives are also not raising their kids correctly.

The thing is, read any thread on here about pushing kids and people are falling over themselves to say it causes MH and anxiety and shouldnt be pushed too hard. Also that they cant possibly do part time jobs as well as school or college as its all too hard. Often British Indian/Asian kids are supporting the family business as well as being pushed hard at school.

That is a British/white cultural thing in my view.

I never think of builders and cleaners when I hear of white children not doing well. Builders are very well paid and many people who clean do well. As per my above post, I think the reasons why the two groups have issues are different. Cultural values and attitudes make a big difference.

I hear it all the time, white people don’t value education the middle class whites only do well because they pay for tutors and outsource teaching their kids while the working class whites just fail. Because we just suck at parenting apparently.

There is a known gang/knife/drug problem in certain cities with the youth and it would be racist to blame that on parents.

A lot of people just read headlines. They read “white working class kids” and assume most of the white population (cleaners, builders, care home workers etc) they don’t realise it’s only talking about families on an extremely low income

We are Indian immigrants. Pushed our kids very very hard.

No it wouldn't be racist to say that certain minority groups have issues with gang/knife crime, or that certain groups are overrepresented in the prison system. It's also not racist to say white working class children do not do as well as minority ethnic counterparts in the same socio economic groups. Instead of getting offended and tying ourselves in knots over being slighted, it's much more productive to look at the root causes of both and how we can all work together as a society to make outcomes better.

I really don't think people think most of white children are on FSM. Especially not on mumsnet!

Being over represented in the prison system and gang/knife crime is blamed on racism and white privilege. White kids getting bad grades is blamed on white parents and you have columnists typing up essays about how they’re all too busy spending benefits on nails while every single non white parent is apparently sat at home drilling times tables.

I honestly think the white middle class do fine.

The white working class do a lot of thefts, violence and unfortunately also do VAWG at significantly higher per capita rates.

No I’m not saying they do. I’m saying it’s been in the news that white working class kids getting bad grades bad grades which makes you think of builders and plumbers etc. Loads of people basically.

When it’s actually just talking about FSM kids which a plumber and builder would earn too much to be eligible for.