To think this information is missing from the news about white working class children in schools?

[Machinemasoluem]

That the definition of working class is FSM eligibility..

FSM is not a good definition of working class. At all.
The eligibility is earning less than 7.4k a year so barely anyone and its hardly working and will include children busy caring for disabled parents who don’t have time for homework, children who’s parents have alcohol or even drug problems. Etc

Absolutely no judgement from me my child gets FSM (I was only 16 when I had him and he was eligible when he started school but once you get them it lasts until the end of primary school) but it seems obvious that children from homes with issues that prevent them earning more than 7.4k will more likely struggle at school.

In September every child whose parents receive universal credit will be eligible for FSM so millions more children and from more ordinary working families. Even some middle class families receive universal credit so FSM still won’t be a good definition of working class.

I think the statistics around this will definitely be watered down when this happens. In the meantime why is it acceptable for people to act like white people are terrible parents unless they have the money for a tutor and all non white parents are superior at instilling discipline, respect and the importance of hard work? There are areas in London with obvious issues and it would be considered really racist to blame parenting.

Maybe not but my child is one of the smartest in his class, studies every day, I’ve always made him read and bought workbooks for him to do.
And I guess for the first few years of his childhood we were lower class, lower than working class which would be builders and plumbers.

It gets said a lot that Indians in the uk value education and from what I’ve seen it’s usually true but I’m curious would you say most Indians that live in the uk were higher caste back in India? Are lower caste Indians the same? Please don’t think I’m taking the piss I’m just curious

Lexibletheflexible you seem to be saying it's not worth trying because you won't get anywhere unless you get a leg up from someone you know.

I don't think I know anyone who has had nepotistic help to get where they are in their careers apart from a couple of tradesmen who joined the family firm (which their fathers started with no nepotistic help from anyone).

Everyone else, the teachers, nurses, child minders, accountants, lawyers, IT gurus, business owners, civil servants has got there under their own steam. Well, with encouraging parents who were prepared to help with homework, attend parent evenings etc.

I'm white, not well off and had my first DC when I was 19. I'm not looking down on anyone from lofty heights. I'm merely saying there are generalized observations that from my POV explain or at least contribute to the difference in outcomes between the two groups.

Edit: this was supposed to quote @Machinemasoluem but for some reason the quote was lost.

I read a statistic a while ago that Chinese students on FSM do better academically than White students at Private Schools. I simply do not think people understand how much upbringing, values and especially genetics & culture contribute to educational outcomes and how much those factors can almost alleviate a wealth gap.

I also agree with you OP that by newspapers using the headlines "White working class" instead of "Students on Free School Meals/Most Disadvantaged/Closer to the Poverty Line" having the worst educational outcomes is deliberately inflammatory. As most of the public don't read past the headlines (and have pre-conceived notions anyway), most will see that headline and think it's their children, the product of hardworking, salt-of-the-earth average Britons who are the most academically behind when in fact it's the children of parents where a lot of them are experiencing neglect, poverty, low literacy levels etc.

But the people you speak of like teachers and nurses and most other jobs you listed there are chronically underpaid and some low job security. So yes, you can strive to be a nurse, get into thousands of pounds of debt while you do so and also work as a student for the NHS while they bill you for tuition. You will then be low paid in this very demanding, often thankless job

But ahhhh you get to help make other people better!

You've highlighted my point. The incentive to work hard and do a job like this is severely lacking.

People say "get into management" but senior roles in those industries often revert back to being very white, middle classed and often male, too.

There are lots of generalisations that can be made about specific ethnicities, based on research. It's not racist to do so. I'm sure there are lots of poor parents who smoke/drink/take drugs who are not white, but the research says it is less likely, particularly for women.
One of the major hurdles in improving outcomes for WWC children is for us white people to stop being so fragile and getting offended and feeling demonized because children with darker skin might be doing better than ours. Surely we should look at research (not the comments on social media) to try to ascertain what the root problems are and how we might try to overcome them?

None of the nurses I know are particularly low paid and certainly don't have low job security. They work 3 long shifts so work/life balance is good. Would they like more pay? Well of course, who wouldn't. The tuition fees are ridiculous, but that's across the board.

'The incentive to work hard and do a job like this is severely lacking.'

Not quite sure what you mean by this - I suppose if you're solely driven by £ they could find work which pays more,

Honestly good on him. And good on you for encouraging and developing him into a smart young man.

Whilst I don't like the class system at all I think you are correct in some bits..but lots of generations want their kids (especially their sons) to do better than they did. Some people working the basic menial jobs will save whatever they can fit their children's education.

I’m not offended that children with darker skin might be doing better than my child. Read my last comment my son is one of the smartest in his class even though we were lower class for his whole early childhood (not even working class).

I just don’t like hearing opinion pieces on terrible white parenting from people who wouldn’t dare say the same thing about non white parents in London when there’s some obvious problems there.

Im also curious if anyone knows whether the majority of Indians in the uk were in middle or lower castes in India? From what I’ve seen Indians do usually value education but were most British Indians higher caste back in India?

Nurses earn less than national average salary.

It isnt about being solely driven by money. It's literally about having enough money to survive. And actually you do 3-4 13 hr shifts per week. Some nurses don't get all the breaks they're meant to have and their shifts can be a mix of days and nights. It's nothing for my friend to work Monday Day, Tuesday Night, Wednesday Night, Friday Day. The next week can be totally different combination of days and nights.

Nurses are using food banks. Why would you strive and put yourself into debt to potentially use a food bank?

It depends on several factors. We have people from every Indian class and background. You cant compare Indian Sikhs to Indian Guji Muslims

I don't know the answer to your question about Indian families but I do know that breaking down the data from South Asian families finds that Pakistani and Indian families do best, and Bangladeshi families do worse than them and even in some areas worse than the WWC families.
Whether this is because they are poorer, have larger families, have been in the UK less time, speak poorer English, are more traditional, or a combination of all of these, is possibly more important than caste.
It would be really interesting to look at Pakistani Christian (mainly former low caste Hindus) vs Muslim families actually. (Google AI tells me it can't break down the figures this way).

There is much written, reported and researched about knife crime/gang/drug crime and ethnicity. Also about the role absent fathers and positive role models have on the chances of young boys, especially, joining gangs, using knives and smoking skunk.

It is not considered racist to have this debate. Have experts, journalists, researchers, academics lost their jobs due to writing about these issues? It is imperative that these debates are had in society.

I am black and do not cry racism when I see an article about knife crime and another young black boy imprisoned because of the horrific effects of his use of a knife on individuals and families. It is a fact. It is a fact that is being researched and debated as is the topic of research and debate at the heart of your thread, OP.

Most people are in no doubt that working class people or children that have FSM, are not being categorically blamed for the underperformance of white boys in schools. The issue is far more nuanced than that and categorisations of ‘working class’, ‘underclass’, ‘economically inactive’ are all thrown into the mix.

FSM uptake is used by sociologists to discuss demographics, but this demography are a representation of so much in society, over and above underperformance in schools.

I thought nurses start on £32k.. isn't that enough?

Did you actually read the article? You came back with your response, which seems to suggest that the author reports things about the “white multi-generational, economically inactive” that you find offensive. In as much as to say that if he wrote an informed article about knife crime and ethnicity he would be accused of racism.

What are your thoughts on the points made in the actual article, because they do go some way to addressing your initial query about the ‘missing’ information relating to the performance of white working class children in schools.

No, not with the cost of living and the sharp drop between earning too little and needing a UC top up and earning £1 too much and getting nothing at all. It's a good solid career if you have a higher earning partner.

There was a fairly large project in Tower Hamlets to improve outcomes for children of Bangladeshi heritage. One of the main stumbling blocks was lack of English language in the mothers, which caused a large bridge between home and school. The report identified the aspiration was there but the parents were at a loss as to how to support. There was a very successful short term intervention where Bengali speaking home links teachers/workers went from schools to homes/community centres in order to fill the parents in so to speak, to help them understand the curriculum, what was expected of them as parents regarding homework and how to best help their child throughout school. This had a tremendous impact and I believe Tower Hamlets Girls schools had some of the best GCSE results in the state sector.
The report said that the success was largely down to parental aspiration and willingness to engage. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at something, if the parents aren't on board it will not be effective.

The OP does not appear to be interested in the facts.

If they have kids right?

Google ai is shit. The qualifying criteria changes from 1st September. Which is handy because most of those benefits dont exist anymore and the application systems are already in place and working very nicely.

There will be targeted (the original group) and expanded (all UC, no pupil premium funding) to be renewed annually.

Even without. It isn't uncommon for professionals in London to be in a flatshare with strangers to make ends meet.

Surely FSM indicates underclass? Not working class

@Lifeonvenus100a really high proportion of kids at my son’s school are south Asian. There is a huge academic push (often “front ending” education, so push for more homework, more difficult sums etc even at KS1). But the parents just aren’t as rounded as we are educationally or general knowledge wise, or in terms of interest in the arts - education for education’s sake, as opposed to to get to university to study for a “good” career like some medicine or law or accountancy. Heaven forbid someone be allowed to develop at their own pace, rather than push, push, push them. 🙄 The feeling is that the education is being forced into them, rather than the natural curiosity from the one being educated at least partly leading it.

I speak as someone who attended a grammar school and whose mother was of that kind of immigrant mindset. I really don’t want all that push for my son: my Oxbridge degree and subsequent entry into the middle class has afforded him the luxury of an elite education and entry to the middle/upper middle class and an education that keeps pace with and is tailored to him rather than our relentlessly pushing him and turning him off learning altogether.

Surely you don’t mean that! Many working class and some middle class children have FSM, it depends on circumstance and low income, not class.

So what you are asking is whether the definition use is correct? Because the data only looks at white boys in poverty not ‘working class’ white boys, unless the definition of ‘working class’ has been reduced? Obviously many working class families [those where the income is solely derived from a ‘wage’ for predominantly ‘labour’ intensive jobs] are not under the poverty bracket, so I think you are right.

What this report is actually saying then would be that ‘white boys growing up in severe poverty’ are more likely to be failed by, and to fail within, the education system.

Well, no shit Sherlock. But this is a completely different demographic, and observed phenomena, than what the headlines are reporting. Which will whip up more cultural division.

I agree @Machinemasoluem it is irresponsible reporting.