To think this information is missing from the news about white working class children in schools?

[Machinemasoluem]

That the definition of working class is FSM eligibility..

FSM is not a good definition of working class. At all.
The eligibility is earning less than 7.4k a year so barely anyone and its hardly working and will include children busy caring for disabled parents who don’t have time for homework, children who’s parents have alcohol or even drug problems. Etc

Absolutely no judgement from me my child gets FSM (I was only 16 when I had him and he was eligible when he started school but once you get them it lasts until the end of primary school) but it seems obvious that children from homes with issues that prevent them earning more than 7.4k will more likely struggle at school.

In September every child whose parents receive universal credit will be eligible for FSM so millions more children and from more ordinary working families. Even some middle class families receive universal credit so FSM still won’t be a good definition of working class.

I think the statistics around this will definitely be watered down when this happens. In the meantime why is it acceptable for people to act like white people are terrible parents unless they have the money for a tutor and all non white parents are superior at instilling discipline, respect and the importance of hard work? There are areas in London with obvious issues and it would be considered really racist to blame parenting.

Yes but to be middle class you by definition need to be fairly well off no? Enough that you shouldn’t be getting FSM. If you’re working for your money (not making it as a landlord or from property or assets) then you are working class even if you have a naice accent and once holidayed in Tuscany.

Underclass is defined as those who are in poverty and socially marginalised. Is FSM not for people in poverty?

Completely. The statistic is such a mess! In my old LA, everyone was given free school meals, so people didn’t register as eligible for them. When Covid came around it was actually the children who were relatively well off in the class (very poor catchment) who were flagged as FSM because their parents had registered and the actual poorest wouldn’t have been noticed.

In terms of attainment the single biggest indicator is the number of books in a house. It cuts through socioeconomic lines.

A lot of this is about attitudes to education and how much you value education.

People who don't have books are less likely to value education. People who have lots of books are the most likely to value education.

And this is also where we have a massive cultural shift in the UK - to go from miners building libraries to these same areas being opportunity and educational black spots.

It is the decline in how people value education that is the issue here.

And this is also why you get some strange anomalies to the generalisation that are on this thread that a few people have taken exception to.

Poorer working class families who do value education and prioritise it are much more likely to have books in their household. These might be library books. They may be books they have spent what little money is available on. But they have prioritised it because they value education.

No it is not for people in poverty only. Not all people on low income are living in poverty, as many on MN will tell you.

You say to be middle class you need to be fairly well off. I don't agree with that. I l know middle class, who due to circumstances; job loss, illness, relationship breakups,
have been on the knees financially and have swallowed their pride and claimed benefits for the immediate situation to feed their families.

This is what the original purpose of benefits were for, when people came up against adverse situations for what ever purpose.

Now, the threshold for a middle class family might be higher than for a low income family when it comes to actually physically making the claim for benefits, which could be because of extended family support or as I said because they might feel shame, but when you really haven't got any money, you might just have to call on the state for help, for a limited period of time, no matter what class you are.

Then those people are no longer middle class… that’s the point. Class is not fixed, it changes. Nothing to do with pride or sacrifice, they’re no longer middle class if they’re - due to circumstances - facing financial ruin.

I will take it back that they’re for the underclass if they are not only targeting children in poverty though. Although I don’t really see why children who aren’t in poverty are then getting FSM.

Poverty in the UK is defined as having insufficient means to meet minimum needs. How people who can’t buy their kids lunch don’t meet that definition idk.

Because I don’t agree with your opinion? Opinions aren’t facts.

Meanwhile we have this quote from you:
“and £7.4k is not the threshold for FSM.”

Factually wrong. £7.4k is the current threshold although that is changing in September.

Sorry I'm not in England, our threshold is just shy of £16k. I'm not stating opinions as facts, you are the one that cannot seem to grasp any of the research outcomes, you seem to be intent on claiming "I'd be called racist if I said that" and you seem irrationally annoyed that people will think builders and plumbers dc are on FSM.

I don’t know, I just see differently. I do agree that class is fluid, but if you live in a middle class area, own your own home, adopt middle class cultural practices and aspirations but you are struggling right now, with the cost of living crisis, you loose your job, or your marriage breaks up and you have to rely on the state for some emergency support does
that make you under class? And when you do get back on your feet and get a new job, marry again, come off of benefits, you then step back into your middle class lane. That scenario suggests a fluidity to me also.

Those people who temporarily hit blocks like that for a short time having lived in an expensive area with their own home would generally not be entitled to any help from the state due to having over £16,000 in savings. If they don’t have that much were they ever middle class?

Ah yes. But then they've made ends meet and don't need UC

I still don’t think you get it I’m not annoyed that people might think plumbers children get fsm. I’m not a plumber and my kid does get fsm why would I care if people thought that.

What I’m saying is the headlines say white working class children are doing badly at school and the general population who just read headlines do not realise it’s actually only about really low income children on fsm. Other people understand what I’m saying but I’m not sure how many more times I can try and explain this to you

There are middle class people getting uc. Loads of people get it. Teachers and social workers for example, especially if there’s a husband who’s eloped. In September they’ll be entitled to fsm

I think it depends on the circles you move in. I'm not wealthy but most people around me understand that headlines (particularly in tabloids) are purposely inflammatory and they read the article to get the facts. They understand that the comments in social media platforms are not facts. They also understand that the definition of social class is not set in stone and that in contemporary policy that "working class" is really referring to what sociologists call the underclass.

A husband who has eloped? What does that mean?

There are couples in middle class professions receiving UC. And more commonly middle class single mothers who’s husbands have abandoned their families, one income dosent go far with kids even if you have a relatively good job

This is such an important issue and everyone knows the difference between working class and the under class, where generations do not work, do not engage in education and do not aspire to anything more than the receipt of benefits. Even their reasons for living like this are complex.

But living this way does have a huge negative impact on the lives and education of their children.

Categories can be spurious and I think this is what you are touching upon; lumping together children from very different family structures, cultures, aspirations and life experiences simply because they are white and meet FSM eligibility.

But isn’t the necessary debate, one that identifies these children and assists them, rather than a debate about the hurt feelings of people who only read headlines.

Hmm what about a SAHM whose coming from a solidly middle class family but has no income of her own. Does she change class in that situation

What on earth has class got to do with savings??

Depends. Generally her husbands income makes her well off. If they’re divorcing she’s owed half of the savings. If she has to get a regular old job again with few savings after she becomes working class.

Why would you still be middle class living in a small flat, working a badly paid job etc. you become working class.

Im not sure why people are offended that class mobility goes down as well as up…

Because middle class people tend to have more money! So why would they suddenly go from having lots of money to do all their middle class things and own their middle class home to having no savings, no backup plan and needing FSMs?

The part of that report that fails to be mentioned is the one I find most maddening. In spite of their higher academic achievements, women and young people from ethnic minorities go on to earn less than their white male counterparts. That is the definition of white male privilege if ever there was one!

Yes and Even a middle class mother who is a teacher and gets abandoned by her husband may need to claim UC on top of the middle class teachers salary.

Social workers and teachers aren’t middle class they’re working class. Maybe I have a different idea of what middle class is compared to those challenging me.

There was a social mobility report several years ago that covered this. Very interesting stuff, but mostly structural racism, sexism, cultural expectations and gaps in social capital.

Class mobility does go up and down, ‘from rags to riches’ and so on.

Does someone who wins millions on the lottery automatically become upper class?

A person who owns a home, has a professional career, values education, reads to their children, saves where they can, but after redundancy, illness or divorce has little cash left. Most people would still recognise them as middle class in the cultural sense.

Class being fluid, isn’t only about wealth. I know families in the wine industry, families who have connections to the Royal Academy of Music, who no, never went on benefits, or need FSM, but have very little money and a very much born into a middle class family, women who married a plumber and has a very niace accent. She is married to a plumber but would bulk at your suggestion that she is working class.

I knew an old English master, taught at public schools, he has passed away now, who used to say “in my dotage, I am living in genteel poverty”.