AIBU to think neighbours should not be naked in their garden?

[babypickles]

For context: Our house is on a new build estate and the houses are pretty close together. It’s fairly easy to see into neighbours gardens because the trees etc are not well established yet.

AIBU to say my neighbours shouldn’t be naked in their garden. They are often out in the garden totally naked taking photos of themselves. They have parties quite often and it’s not uncommon for them and friends to be out in the garden naked / using the hot tub etc.

Am I being a killjoy ? Seems excessive to me.

Wow, that's quite the diatribe. People who don't want to have to see other people's naked bits really rile you, don't they?

Well obviously you don't. Since it highlights the fallacy in your thinking.
There's no fallacy in my thinking, but thanks for your concern. You seem to be working yourself up into quite the froth here just because not everyone agrees with you, and I find it amusing that you're accusing others on the thread of fascism when you're literally trying to browbeat others into agreeing with you.

What percentage of (actual) crimes against children have been performed by people who were naked in public?

And ironically, given that you were trying to accuse me of flawed thinking 😂you have completely misunderstood my point. I wasn't suggesting people who are naked in public commit crimes against children ffs. I was suggesting that if children are allowed to run around naked they are at risk from paedos. Hope that clears up the confusion.

I won't be wasting any more time on your posts given your apparent utter incomprehension to consider points of view other than your own. If you want to walk around naked, move to Cap d'Agde or join a nudist colony or something (or even just draw the sodding curtains), and while you're at it learn to accept that sometimes in life you're going to be in the minority with your opinions. Oh, and if you have children and they don't want to be naked around you or vice versa, I hope to God you don't bully and browbeat them like you have attempted to do to people on this thread.

Yes but people at naturist camps are consenting to being in that environment! You shouldn't force it on anyone in a residential area!

Right now of course there's not much crimes committed against kids by naked adults because being naked in public isn't normalised outside of naturist places! You don't think it wouldn't cause issues if you normalised nudity everywhere and insisted on making kids get naked and be around naked adults! You don't think n--ces wouldn't enjoy that and take advantage of that! What if the neighbours naked mate was looking up at your little girl in her bedroom and rubbing himself off! You need your hard drive checking! You want kids to be naked and more easily photographed by other bakes adults?

'the hysterical reaction to nudity amazes me'

Hysterical? I was first flashed at the age of 6 in broad daylight.

This thread has taken an incredibly disturbing turn IMO.

The insistence by some that people should just have the right to be naked and that nobody is allowed to be offended by that points to a far more sinister type of thinking on their part.

When arguments are made for e.g. not having mixed sex spaces, part of that argument surrounds the fact that for many victims and survivors of sexual abuse, the sight of a naked body is traumatic. Why should anyone have to tolerate that when nudity is sexual, whether you like it or not.

Insisting on being naked when you know that there are people who find it offensive and disturbing is a power play. It has nothing to do with freedom, it’s all about power, and the sick thrill you get from knowing that people, including SA survivors and small children are seeing you naked.

You do have the right to be naked, in your own home, in your own space. Not being naked in public does not harm you. Others having to see you naked though absolutely can harm them.

quite. And all a paedophile need do is get a job as a security guard watching the CCTV in any of the millions of public places which have them.

you need all your friends round, dressed as vicars

Context is key here. Of course you wouldn’t expect to see someone in the supermarket naked, any more than you’d expect to see someone there in a bikini or swimsuit. But sunbathing, swimming or sitting in a hot tub are absolutely places where you might expect to encounter a naked person.

I find it strange that this thread excited such strong opinions when any remotely tech savvy child can access the most explicit porn on the internet.

The normalisation of porn has done way more to damage children (and adults) than will ever be the consequence of a nudist in a garden.

I rather think you have missed the point. If out of seven gardens you look in, at any time one of those seven may contain a naked person then I think it’s fair to suggest that this IS in fact a “cultural norm”, albeit not your particular norm.

A diatribe?

You mean a discussion responding to your points, that you apparently find hard to respond dispassionately.

You said nothing about children running around naked - you said children need to be protected from naked people. You keep chopping and changing your argument here.

I won't be wasting any more time on your posts given your apparent utter incomprehension to consider points of view other than your own.
I do consider other people's viewpoints - and I have stated why I disagree with them - that's how a civilised discussion goes. You refuse to engage with any of those points, which is telling. I can understand why you don't want to continue talking, it's hard to have preconceptions challenged.

While you're at it learn to accept that sometimes in life you're going to be in the minority with your opinions.
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but mostly I have been referencing the law and the disregard for it here. But mob rule is a bad way to police a society. Apparently you think that all minorities should just accept the whim of the majority? That wasn't working too well for women over most of the 20th century was it!

I hope to God you don't bully and browbeat them like you have attempted to do to people on this thread.
Browbeat? You mean respond to emotive arguments with logic, reason, and an understanding of the law. This whole thread has started with the premise that nudity is wrong and that MN are the arbiters of decency and morality.
The question originally asked was AIBU - my response is yes.

That's classy

I answer all your points calmly and fully, including citing the relevant legislation.

And you want to take this conversation (naked people in a private garden) and equate it to sexual abuse?

You take one sentence and ignore any of the other points - ROFLMAO.

DARVO is usually a tactic of men who gaslight women - enough said.

And yet, in over 50 years on this planet, having lived in a wide variety of places and situations, many of which have been in built-up, urban areas with overlooked gardens, not once have I seen anybody sunbathing naked in their garden.

Even if we accept at face value that 6.75% of the UK population are nudists (less than 10% of the population), it isn’t widely accepted that it’s A-ok to get your bits out in places where you can be seen by others who are not part of the nudist scene and therefore have not consented to seeing it all.

The issue is not that there are nudists - clearly, a minority of people like to be with others in the nude, that’s not in question. It’s one thing to go to a nudist resort or club and be with others people in the nude in that private situation where everyone consents. The issue is the push from some on this thread to assert it’s a widespread, widely accepted practice in public, in places outside of nudist resorts and clubs, when it just isn’t. The fact it’s someone’s back garden is neither here nor there, unless they live somewhere unusually remote where they couldn’t possibly be seen.

It has never been a thing in the UK that you can routinely be naked where strangers can easily see you.

If you stop for a minute and try to see things from the point of view of somebody with experience of sexual abuse, perhaps you might get more of an understanding of why some of us are keen to not see widespread nudity in public be normalised.

Sadly, some people have good reason to be suspicious of attempts to push boundaries that are in place in society to protect the vulnerable.

I’m not accusing you of bad intent here, to be clear. It may well be the case that you are coming from a place of it just being something you enjoy, that from a philosophical standpoint you think is evolved. But sadly there are other more predatory types who would just exploit a normalisation of public nudity for abusive purposes.

This thread has taken an incredibly disturbing turn IMO.
Do you mean it has started to centre around what the law says, and not what MNs would like it to say?
I've not seen anyone say that you are not allowed to be offended.
What has been said is that you taking offense is not enough to curtail the rights of others to operate within the law, and that it's a slippery slope to go that route.

Don't forget, there are many who are deeply offended by a woman walking down the street without her hair covered. Do you think their offense should trump your right to dress as you currently do?
Do you think that because some people are deeply offended by abortion that you should be denied that right?

Do you think it is disturbing to argue that offense, which is the subjective response to something, should ignore context and intent of the person doing the thing that causes offence?

Why should anyone have to tolerate that when nudity is sexual, whether you like it or not.
Nudity is not sexual. The law recognises that.
You might feel that way, probably because you generally only see nudity in a sexual context but it's not. A mother bathing a naked child has nothing to do with sex.

It is interesting to see authoritarian people coming out and telling people how to live.
Walking down the road is not illegal.
A man walked round England in the nude and he was not arrested.
It is only illegal if you cause distress or alarm.
So if you do it to cause nuisance but minding your own business in your back garden is not that.
The authoritarian people I seriously wonder about their morals.
it is always the moral majority types who are found in brothels or even worse.
In life we need to be more concerned with ourselves rather than pontificating about others.

In these tense times the more we have balance in your viewpoints the better.

It’s always a balance of competing rights and interests.

The fact is that the incidents you mention are memorable because they are rare. It isn’t common to see people wandering around in the nude in public in the UK (we don’t have the weather for it, for one thing! This week excepted), It is outside of the norm.

Nobody is saying it’s not ok to go to nudist clubs where everyone is like-minded. Can you really not understand why some of us are uneasy about public nudity being normalised?

If the Overton window were to be successfully shifted in this way, apart from nudists, who benefits from this pushing of boundaries? And who might be made more vulnerable?

@vind do you mean the naked rambler? He's been in and out of jail dozens of times. Would come out and strip off at the door, then get lifted because one of the terms of his release was not to be naked within so many feet of a school and there was one at the bottom of the road. Had to keep him in segregation because he refused to wear anything.

but if we flip the logic, why dont society have a set of dress codes, i mean have you seen some of the bikinis, how are they any different ? (im of the view if you want to swing then swing)

I didn’t equate being naked in the garden to sexual abuse. I’m saying that for a victim of sexual abuse being unwillingly and unexpectedly exposed to a man’s nakedness could be extremely triggering and could cause some of the “hysteria” you think is going on.

You seem unable to accept the fact that despite the fact it’s perfectly legal, some people may have a problem with seeing strangers naked or have a problem with their kids seeing strangers naked. You are on this thread calling women who have an issue with it “hysterical” but yes you’re right I’m the one behaving like a man

I’m not sure I understand your point. Can you expand?

to prevent nudity eg if they do outlaw it even for private events then would society be better with a defined set of dress codes, i mean have you seen some of the bikinis, how are they any different when some bikinis almost show the whole body at the beeches ?

You see, again you’re looking at the world through the narrow lens of your own sole experiences. It is disingenuous to state “It has never been a thing in the UK” simply because you personally have not experienced it in fifty years. Just accept and celebrate the fact that we’re all different and we all have different life experiences.

what i want to know is did everyone forget the swinging 60's or is that only because they didnt have social media then

Thanks BB

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not actually arguing for widespread public nudity and I'm sitting here fully clothed as usual. The only time I am fully naked is on a hot beach far from anyone.

I was sexually abused as a teenager, for 14 months, by a lodger.

And I went through it on my own, in the days when women were not generally believed or treated well. I don't discount the feelings of anyone but I also don't automatically validate what I think are irrational fears for the vast majority of people.

The core of what I am trying to say is:

1. The push (of this thread) is not towards more nudity, but was towards restricting the rights in a private space that are enshrined in law. So this thread was all for pushing the boundary in the opposite direction.
2. A lot of the fear of nudity (SA trauma aside) is that we don't see it often and when we do it's generally sexualised so we automatically jump to that. It would be good to break that cycle for many reasons.
3. That a fear of predatory types is never a good reason to clamp down on the freedoms of 99.99% of non-predatory types. Much better to make sure no predator can reoffend, again, ever.
4. Offense is a subjective feeling; not a weapon that should trump all other reason ... There are many people who are deeply offended by the rights and freedoms that women have won over the last 40 years. You should understand that others would like your own freedoms to be curtailed on the basis of their offense.

Also - I am, I will admit, trying to challenge people's emotional arguments, or errors of fact. Some may see that as provocative but in reality it's a vainglorious attempt to get others to see that their simple "it shouldn't be allowed if people can see into their garden" concept is flawed on many levels.

As I keep saying - women have suffered too long from having judgement passed on what is acceptable behaviour and dress by others with "moral values". Why would we then seek to make "I'm offended" an acceptable argument again?