To think long term affairs are like a form of fraud really

[paddleboardingmum]

Or a scam or something? Yet another of my friends has been cheated on (long marriage, teenage kids) in a situation where he's been in an affair for years. By doing that you're not only living a lie but really it's conning the other person isn't it? I'm not saying it should be a crime as such, just thinking about the deceit factor with this type of situation.

Of course it’s deceit but I no longer feel as judgemental of cheats as I did.

The number of people well and truly stuck in miserable or abusive relationships wasn’t made clear to me until recent years. And no, they can’t just ‘get their ducks in a row and leave’.

Take my aunt. Abusive marriage, husband financially controlling her, beating their kids. He had spent so much of their money she was absolutely broke and had no prospect of being able to suddenly leave. She did have an affair, with a man who paid for her her escape, and provided her with much needed physical safety when she was at her most vulnerable just after leaving. I can’t imagine what he would’ve done if she hadn’t had the new man to protect her. I can’t judge her, I really can’t. 25 years she put up with that bastard

Yeah, the older you get, the more you realise that there are many situations that aren't black and white. All the shades of grey reveal themselves as you go through life. I'm not sure I blame cheaters who have been denied sex and romance and affection for years. Yes, ideally you would leave, but that ignores the fact that there are probably still strong attachments to a neglectful spouse and maybe money issues, and maybe still a bit of hope despite stiff odds. And yes, maybe you can get your ducks in a row over time, but people are only human, and the needs for validation, connection, and affection are very strong in human beings. So if you meet someone who meets those needs, and you often feel like a ghost in your own home, of course people are going to crack sometimes.

Yes that’s another scenario which has happened to a few people I know. Loveless marriages where they desperately try to connect to their spouse but are frozen out, and no efforts to reach them work. Years of no physical touch, no sex and no affection must be soul destroying, but leaving would mean selling the family home, moving their children’s schools etc - and really, who can justify that to themselves for ‘just’ intimacy? I wouldn’t be able to.

Exactly that scenario, yes. People are only human, and I really think that marriage asks some super-human things of people. Cheating when your marriage is good or fine or just OK is obviously despicable. But asking people to just put up with a lifetime of abject loneliness and a spouse who simply doesn't want to know is just unrealistic for many. It's great if people feel able to leave before they crack, but many can't. And I'm sure that many lonely, neglected spouses had every intention of just putting up with it, and then they met someone who reminded them that life didn't have to be that way. Or something happened to make them realise that life is short.

When someone neglects their spouse and refuses all attempts to reconnect, over the long term, I think that's as much a betrayal of the wedding vows as cheating is. I had a husband who never physically cheated, as far as I know, but every single day he betrayed all his other vows as well as the entire spirit of marriage, which is supposed to be about teamwork and partnership, and what's for the good of the partnership and not always the individual. HAH!

I never cheated, but to be fair, I was never tested, as I didn't meet any suitable alternatives.

The scenarios I have seen play out are more like what pp have described, where the faithful partner was totally blindsided as the cheat had been playing along with normal family life, sleeping with them, all the rest of it. Then one day out the blue it either comes to light that it's all been a lie or the cheater suddenly ups and leaves. Devastating.

I haven't personally seen this 'knight in shining armour whose a lovely guy rescues distressed abused woman and they live happily ever after thank goodness for affairs' scenario which a few posters on here seem to have done.

Fully agree

Yes, that must be completely devastating, mustn't it.

I remember reading an article once about the "Six Different Types of Affairs," and one of them was the Exit Affair. That one was down as one which could be psychologically healthy.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I am definitely in the 'shades of grey, not everything is black and white' camp here.

Even when people describe a 'faithful spouse' that gives the impression that sexual fidelity is the most important thing in a marriage. There are plenty of other marital qualities just as important - kindness, financial responsibility, reliability, co-parenting if applicable, moral support etc etc.
It's not a choice I'd relish but if I had to choose between a sexually promiscuous husband who was otherwise great or a sexually faithful dickhead who made my life a misery in other ways I'd choose the former every time.

And I would imagine that a lot of sexually faithful spouse's 'blindsided' by infidelity behave in ways which the unfaithful one would consider grounds to at least partially excuse infidelity. People talking about fraud or civil remedies for infidelity are mad IMO. It's almost never as simple as one partner being bad and the other saintly.

Oooh, I love it!

Agree, I wonder how many of these ‘blindsided spouses’ just couldn’t see the fault in their own behaviour. My friend is getting divorced at the moment - her husband has spent over a decade ignoring her. He sits and watches TV in the evening, and treats her like an irritant for ‘interrupting’ him. There’s no conversation, no sex, he chooses to sleep in the spare bedroom. She’s tried talking to him about it time and time again but he just doesn’t see the problem. A lot of men and sometimes women do reach a point where they’re happy to live as basically platonic housemates, and then seem baffled the other person is desperate for some human connection.

But she has the option to leave first then find a new man

Does she? With children settled at a particular school with their friends, and situated close enough for work etc? I couldn’t do it if I wanted to. Not without moving to a crappy sink estate somewhere and pulling my kids out of school. Only on Mumsnet do people swear blind they would do this because their DH leaves the loo seat up.

You are ignoring the fact that a secretly promiscuous husband is exposing you to risks of STDs which can result in cancer /infertility. That's a pretty grim level of risk

And with a husband who is awful in overt ways you can choose to leave.

Of course.

Or she could choose an honest open relationship

My ex was abusive, I made sure I got my career on track and then I was out. I didn't just ricochet to the next man and drag my kids along for the ride.

Did you move to a sink estate and pull your kids out of school?

Yep And why doesnt HE leave.

No- like I say, I got myself sorted with a job that meant I could support myself and my children. But if you are going to choose to stay in a relationship purely for the financial benefits then just be honest you have made that choice. If you want to shag around then have a discussion and make it an open relationship

It it's abusive then clearly you have to leave, but the worst thing you can do then is throw yourself straight at a new man. That's shit for the children too

Having seen dear friends suffer the devastation and heartbreak first hand, I have no time for the victim blamers or people who try and act like it's not wrong to deceive your spouse like that. It's very wrong, cowardly and above all extremely selfish. Sympathy to anybody reading who has been at the hands of a horrible person like that.

I know it's not that simple now, but I quite like the historic ability to sue for breach of promise etc. At least anyone wronged eg by a fiance could theoretically get some feeling of justice - if they could afford to sue.

Although of course huge double standards were at play, especially in terms of class. For quite a while, as long as you were married, it was entirely accepted for the upper classes at least - even women - to have discreet lovers, often long term, as long as the respectable facade of marriage was preserved. Unthinkable now, yet so many people seem to think they're upper class twats in the 1800s and above modern morality. It inevitably comes out and causes untold misery.

It would be nice to think that (especially as marriage these days is supposed to be about love rather than shoring up family position/wealth) there'd be more legal consequences for unfaithful spouses.

I'd like to see laws around the fact that if you don't know your partner is sleeping around then you haven't truly consented to sex. If you think you are in a monogamous relationship it should be an offence for your partner to sleep with you if they are secretly having sex with others . It should count as non consensual sex

i admit I’m biased to it.

But it’s the same reason many people seek revenge. It doesn’t make logical sense, but we are human.

I said breaking your marriage agreement and particularly if children are involved.

To be fair, my exes punishment is the fact the he now has child maintenance automatically taken out of his pay - so I guess that’s the compensation he has to pay towards his son.

It helps …

In my so called loony world of “punishment for cheating” I’ll add pay for mandatory counselling (as I had to pay for that).

Im happy to hear that you don’t mind being cheated on though. Wish I could be so cold about it.

Consenting to sex is consenting to the act. I think to add more conditions is a slippery slope to go down.

SO much this. And your friend's marriage sounds very familiar.

Spousal neglect is also devastating and breaks people's hearts, as do all forms of abuse.

Some spouses are absolutely awful to their other halves without being unfaithful - there are so many ways to hurt and abuse a spouse. Frankly, some spouses deserve everything they get.

ETA: Of course, this does not include loving spouses who were cheated on for the sole reason that their spouse is an utter dick. That is awful, I agree. But there's a big difference between someone who cheats because they're a total dick and someone normally loyal who cracks after years of being treated like shit. That's why I don't think you can judge every cheating spouse the same.